D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

lots of things are just questions of degrees are important.

I think most people would feel a 7th level slot to maybe blind 3 characters for 1 round with a save every round would be mediocre at best.

If a wizard has given up a 7th slot to do this what would you have a fighter give up to achieve the same effect?

5th level slot, not 7th.

But here we have exactly the problem. "Spells get to be more powerful, because they are limited. Therefore you need to give up resources fighter" and then you give no resources to the fighter. And if you try to give resources to the fighter... that's too much like spellcasters and not in the design space of the fighter.

And all of this ignores how those precious spell slots get more and more ubiquitous as the levels go. Sure, a level 2 wizard has 3 precious spell slots. But a level 18 wizard has 22 spell slots, and a few at-will spells, and likely a few spell-like abilities or magical items to give a few more. Suddenly.... less precious.

 

[HammerMan]

"Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character's ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise.

When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure."

Good pull. Thank you for word for wording it.

And all this boils down to... "ask your DM, they decide if you can, and what you will need to roll"

This is why some call it mother may I.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Amazingly, that answered nothing I was asking.

What is allowing the barbarian to beat Olympian standards? Magic, divine blood, primal spirits, or what? When the weaponmaster uses his epic special moves, are we talking WWE or Super Sayan? When the knight gets his intelligent magic sword, it's the sword that's special and doing the magic wahoo stuff, he's just bearer?

Because I keep asking for a REASON a character can transcend the limits of mere mortals, and I keep getting "lulz, IDK, XP maybe?" and an answer. Actually, what I keep getting is "the wizard can do it and that's not FAIR!"

So I will state this again, as clearly as I can.

A Barbarian is infused with primal spirits that manifest as rage. A Monk trains his spirit and focuses ki into impossible maneuvers. A bloodhunter uses alchemy and magic to infuse his blood. A ranger is in tune with nature, a paladin is blessed by the divine, a warlock imbued by its patron. All of them get the ability to laugh at the limits of normal people due to some supernatural force in story that powers their abilities.

What is powering the fighter's ability to break past mortal limits? The answer determines the peak. Even amongst the current fighter subclasses, each has a different peak. The psi-warrior uses psionics to do telekinetic stuff. Rune knights use rune magic to grow large. Arcane archers use magical arrows. But champions don't have any magic and surprise they don't get to jump mountains. If you added a "Kryptonian" subclass to fighters, I'd be okay with them flying, stopping bullets, or using ice breath. But the base fighter doesn't unless he too is assumed to be supernatural and explained as such. No "¯\(ツ)/¯", an in-universe explanation in the game book that says why Bob the fighter can now fly at 13th level.

Give me that and you have my vote.

Magic is in everything and everyone because magic is just a manifestation of life. At a certain level all creatures have the ability to channel changes in reality. Wizards can do it by directly shaping magic: through knowledge, they can shape magic into different effects and alter things. For others, it is more subtle: Monks channel the cosmos through their soul, refining and hardening it so that they can do fantastical things. Barbarians do it through emotion, tapping into a well that allows them to toss boulders, crash through mountains, and ignore even the most powerful of blows. Fighters? Through training, they hone their skills, and at the edge of that the magic begins to seep through: their blades can cut through the uncuttable, causing shockwaves that travel through the air and slice that which they didn't even touch. They can turn mundane objects into weapons that can hurt the seemingly invulnerable, stomp the ground with their foot in such a way that those around them feel the tremors and fall down. Rogues begin to manifest their skills in ways that are seemingly impossible: they can literally sink into shadows, become nigh-invisible, move through the spaces between iron bars and seep through the cracks in doors to become ungovernable.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Magic is in everything and everyone because magic is just a manifestation of life. At a certain level all creatures have the ability to channel changes in reality. Wizards can do it by directly shaping magic: through knowledge, they can shape magic into different effects and alter things. For others, it is more subtle: Monks channel the cosmos through their soul, refining and hardening it so that they can do fantastical things. Barbarians do it through emotion, tapping into a well that allows them to toss boulders, crash through mountains, and ignore even the most powerful of blows. Fighters? Through training, they hone their skills, and at the edge of that the magic begins to seep through: their blades can cut through the uncuttable, causing shockwaves that travel through the air and slice that which they didn't even touch. They can turn mundane objects into weapons that can hurt the seemingly invulnerable, stomp the ground with their foot in such a way that those around them feel the tremors and fall down. Rogues begin to manifest their skills in ways that are seemingly impossible: they can literally sink into shadows, become nigh-invisible, move through the spaces between iron bars and seep through the cracks in doors to become ungovernable.

Also this need to explain things just misses the point.

John Henry was a might man, born with a hammer in each hand. Why was he able to carve through a mountain and lay railroad track, single-handedly, faster than a machine? Was it because he was blessed by the spirits? Because he had god blood? Because he had magic potions that increased his strength and power?

No. It was because he was John Henry and he was a mighty man. That's the reason.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Also this need to explain things just misses the point.

John Henry was a might man, born with a hammer in each hand. Why was he able to carve through a mountain and lay railroad track, single-handedly, faster than a machine? Was it because he was blessed by the spirits? Because he had god blood? Because he had magic potions that increased his strength and power?

No. It was because he was John Henry and he was a mighty man. That's the reason.

I don't need that explanation, that was for @Remathilis and people like him who desire one. If all they need to get on board is an explanation, I have no reservations in just giving them one.

 

[HammerMan]

Also this need to explain things just misses the point.

John Henry was a might man, born with a hammer in each hand. Why was he able to carve through a mountain and lay railroad track, single-handedly, faster than a machine? Was it because he was blessed by the spirits? Because he had god blood? Because he had magic potions that increased his strength and power?

No. It was because he was John Henry and he was a mighty man. That's the reason.

Good one. I love me some good old fashion American lore
Heck even real people like Jessie James and doc holiday get larger then life stories
Davie Crocket too

I am LOTH to admit it but those are the chuck norise jokes of there time.

 

[Emberashh]

That isn't guidance.

Its a rule, which is what Hussar said didn't exist.

And as for guidance, none of the questions posed thus far are complicated.

Again, I've had DMs

So your problem is cruddy DMs. I believe we established that the last time we went over this line of argument, two or three pages ago.

After a point we're not actually saying anything new here, yet inevitably we keep going in circles and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if I allowed this to continue that eventually Id be accused, again, of believing there isn't a problem just because Im pointing out Improvise Action exists.

We've literally already been through all this already. Lets talk something else.

 

[Tonguez]

5th level slot, not 7th.

But here we have exactly the problem. "Spells get to be more powerful, because they are limited. Therefore you need to give up resources fighter" and then you give no resources to the fighter. And if you try to give resources to the fighter... that's too much like spellcasters and not in the design space of the fighter.

And all of this ignores how those precious spell slots get more and more ubiquitous as the levels go. Sure, a level 2 wizard has 3 precious spell slots. But a level 18 wizard has 22 spell slots, and a few at-will spells, and likely a few spell-like abilities or magical items to give a few more. Suddenly.... less precious.

This is one of the things I liked about 3e Skills having no cap - a PC could jump up and reach an object 30ft in the air with a DC 30+, (using a run up and the wall as a spring board). Spellcasters get to use their Spell slot instead of Skill.
Dirty Trick manouvere is great too

 

[Remathilis]

Magic is in everything and everyone because magic is just a manifestation of life. At a certain level all creatures have the ability to channel changes in reality. Wizards can do it by directly shaping magic: through knowledge, they can shape magic into different effects and alter things. For others, it is more subtle: Monks channel the cosmos through their soul, refining and hardening it so that they can do fantastical things. Barbarians do it through emotion, tapping into a well that allows them to toss boulders, crash through mountains, and ignore even the most powerful of blows. Fighters? Through training, they hone their skills, and at the edge of that the magic begins to seep through: their blades can cut through the uncuttable, causing shockwaves that travel through the air and slice that which they didn't even touch. They can turn mundane objects into weapons that can hurt the seemingly invulnerable, stomp the ground with their foot in such a way that those around them feel the tremors and fall down. Rogues begin to manifest their skills in ways that are seemingly impossible: they can literally sink into shadows, become nigh-invisible, move through the spaces between iron bars and seep through the cracks in doors to become ungovernable.

Which is back to the "The World is crazy-high magic" defense, which is fine if you expect worlds to be like Eberron or Faerun where you can't throw a stone without hitting something or someone magical. The sacrifice of low-magic D&D is one I'll gladly make. But make sure you put that FRONT AND CENTER on page 1 of the PHB, DMG, and MM. Do not come here expecting to play Lord of the Rings, come here expecting to play Elden Ring.

I will be completely honest with you, I'm fine with verisimilitude taking the rest of the decade off if it means samurai shouting down doors, towns build on walking mountains and skyships taking passengers to floating sky-isles. More Eberron, less Dark Sun. Where any farmer can, with enough time and training, break mountains with their mind or fist. But make sure we ALL know that is the kinda Exalted myth world where fantastic things happen before breakfast.

If we're in agreement, game on!

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't need that explanation, that was for @Remathilis and people like him who desire one. If all they need to get on board is an explanation, I have no reservations in just giving them one.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you. I figured you were talking to someone who had me blocked.