D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

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Remathilis

Legend
I can't even imagine someone makeing a 12+ level adventure and having to "account for" something cool the fighter can do. On the other hand EVERY 12+ level adventure has to be built thinking about 3rd-6th level spells
I mean, that's the nature of magic.

When I run Star Wars, I rarely worry about if a character is an amazing pilot, a crack shot, or an armored bounty hunter, I worry if they are a Force user (and especially if they are a Jedi). Jedi do things that require extra design. Especially after the range of Force powers the prequels and sequels have introduced. But that's what you get when you get characters breaking the laws of physics.

So to ask the question in reverse: 4e is the system that puts materials and casters on the closest footing. What martial abilities in 4e did you have to design around?
 

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Again, and honestly, I can't stress this enough, we lost this fight. We lost this fight years ago. Fighters are the most popularly played class in the game. Every bit of evidence we have says that people are very happy with the way fighters are in 5e. Why would WotC make any changes?

This is probably true, unfortunately, for the near term. No one knows for sure, but I really highly doubt this stance is a universally loved preference.

It seems to be a combination of historical inertia, a vocal constituency when soliciting feedback, and preferences of descision makers at WoTC.

We early D&D players will start to die off eventually. It's hard to believe that players coming into D&D as their first rpg weaned on today's media would blink twice at a mythic martial option if it was in there.

Also, adding a mythic martial as another option / boosting martials seems infinitely easier than reigning in casters at this point. Reigning in casters seems to be the real non starter.

The majority of people may be happy with the Fighter now. But that's not the same thing as saying the majority of people are vehemently opposed to a mythic martial existing. And a bunch of those people may even prefer the mythic martial if it existed. They just don't think about this stuff enough to realize it.

Not many people knew they wanted an iphone before it was released and an option.
 

TheSword

Legend
This is probably true, unfortunately, for the near term. No one knows for sure, but I really highly doubt this stance is a universally loved preference.

It seems to be a combination of historical inertia, a vocal constituency when soliciting feedback, and preferences of descision makers at WoTC.

We early D&D players will start to die off eventually. It's hard to believe that players coming into D&D as their first rpg weaned on today's media would blink twice at a mythic martial option if it was in there.

Also, adding a mythic martial as another option / boosting martials seems infinitely easier than reigning in casters at this point. Reigning in casters seems to be the real non starter.

The majority of people may be happy with the Fighter now. But that's not the same thing as saying the majority of people are vehemently opposed to a mythic martial existing. And a bunch of those people may even prefer the mythic martial if it existed. They just don't think about this stuff enough to realize it.

Not many people knew they wanted an iphone before it was released and an option.
These opinions are not mutually exclusive. It’s possible to enjoy playing a fighter and also want to play a Paladin or Bladesinger.

In short, it is possible for you to have your cake and eat it.
 

So to ask the question in reverse: 4e is the system that puts materials and casters on the closest footing. What martial abilities in 4e did you have to design around?

Not really the same. 4e chose to bring casters down and martials up a bit. And put the narrative stuff into rituals that anyone could access (esentially party abilities).

I'm not sure about design around, but challenges looked a little different if the party had access to flying phantom steeds or tree stride or whatever.

If 4e had taken a different route and tried to bring martials up to 3e caster then I imagine you might have to 'design around' martials a bit. But maybe not. Even if there was a mythic martial it likely still wouldn't be as versatile.
 

So to ask the question in reverse: 4e is the system that puts materials and casters on the closest footing. What martial abilities in 4e did you have to design around?
none, but in 4e you didn't have wizards auto ending encounters either. It stripped the magic casters of that power
 

Stalker0

Legend
none, but in 4e you didn't have wizards auto ending encounters either. It stripped the magic casters of that power
This is a bit inaccurate.

While fighters and wizards had similar power sets, their power was not divided equally between encounter and daily powers. Wizards at high levels still had several "dailies" that were absolute game changers in combat. I ran 4e from 3rd all the way to 25th, and when the wizard decided to bust out a daily....it was a brand new ballgame.

However, the difference was that fighters did have some neat encounter and daily powers that let them pull off some crazy tricks, and their paragon and epic destiny abilities gave them "hookey" powers that let them change up the encounter as well here and there.
 

Who cares if it easier? (It is still pretty easy)
yeah cause there is a diffrence between me running to the corner store, me tracking a town over to go to walmart or flying to the mall of america... all easier then traveling to china to where the items are made and yet still not in the realm of "Taking a trip to hell"
That is a story issue and an opportunity for interesting encounters.

Why is being able to planeshift straight to the seventh level of Mount Celestia and skip the good stuff in between being seen as a good thing we want to encourage.

so then you think we should be instead of asking for a new combat class that isn't a spell caster but can do cool things, we should instead ask for the cool things to be taken from the casters? You think that's easier?

Incidentally this is a problem that is predicated on the idea that every wizard has access to every spell.
I'm sorry that some imaginary house rule you can come up with didn't auto fix the situation but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
 

These opinions are not mutually exclusive. It’s possible to enjoy playing a fighter and also want to play a Paladin or Bladesinger.

In short, it is possible for you to have your cake and eat it.

That would be great. I'm certainly not opposed to keeping the current classes and adding a new mythic martial class. Nor have I heard anyone wanting a mythic martial say the current Fighter couldn't also exist for those that like it.

The idea seems to problematic for some though, once you talk about adding non-spellcasting martials with mythic /supernatural abilities that are closer in versatility and power to full casters.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I don't know why or for what reason you and others so readily and aggressively jumped onto this assertion, but please, stop.

I don't think I've been aggressive at all. But if you want to know the issues that we are "jumping on" I can point out some of them. For example, your assertion that rules won't fix the issue I'm discussing in this example, because it is a personal issue... when the entire point is that with a lack of ways to reliably interact meaningfully with the environment means I don't look to the environment for things to do. This IS a rules issue. And it is something I've seen in other games. When you have a scenario where everyone has guns, you often find players and DMs using cover more. But when the majority of the people have melee weapons... cover stops being a thing they look for, even if mechanically it still helps, because the tools they have been given push forward a certain set of actions more than others.

But also this

It was brought up again, by me, in post #249 to make the point that Improvise Action is a valid option Martials have at all tables, even if the specific improvs a person may want might not be depending on their DMs, which I likened to the randomness of a loot table.

You claim it is a valid option. Now. What do you mean by that? Because if you are saying it is a legal option to take in the rules, then great, we are in agreement. But if you mean it is an effective option... then no. My interpretation, based on you saying that improvised actions "temper how severe the problem is" is that you think the improvised actions are effective options. And this is where a lot of the disagreement comes in. A lot of our counter-points are based around the idea that, despite the fact that we CAN attempt to intimidate an enemy as an action... it isn't effective enough to be worth an action.

For example, notably the undead such as zombies and skeletons are not immune to the Frightened condition. You can cast Fear on them, and it will work. But if you tried to intimidate them... most DMs would laugh thinking it was a joke. And even if they let you, it might work on one zombie in melee range, not exactly worth the same as attacking twice. This is why the Intimidating Prescence ability had to be buffed, because using your entire action to frighten a single enemy wasn't worth it.

And thus, while we are all aware you declare non-standard actions, in practice, this doesn't amount to much. It is usually just using a skill in combat, as an action. And so it doesn't really temper the problem like you claim.

I brought up DCC's Mighty Deed more than once for a reason, and I even linked my own creations earlier on as well, which I'll add are all based on the same logic I use here about combat being shallow, abilities needing to be specific and non-generic, and the integration of improv; all done across 7 separate Martial designs. I argue the things I do because I look at these issues from the perspective of a game designer, and Im confident in them because Im literally watching them work with every playtest I run with these ideas.

I did a search for this in the thread, only found two examples and neither went into specific mechanics. Googling the design, it seems like it is... basically what I've been saying as the thing most DMs won't allow improvised action to do. I'd like to see the full rules that you think for this, since I can't find them in the thread, but I will say I've found a rather serious snag in the designs I've seen online.

"The DM agrees the Deed is reasonable for a fighter of their level."

This is tricky, because it is again just putting the entire weight of this on DM fiat. The usefulness of the ability is 100% on the DM agreeing that your character can possibly pull off the thing they are attempting. And I know the typical response "well, if you don't trust your DM, why are you playing with them" but the point is? Casters don't NEED to trust their DM. If a warlock with repelling blast wants to knock someone back 10 ft? They do it. The DM has to design reasons they can't do it, because the default is that they do it. No check, no consideration of their level. They just succeed.

Now I'm not saying we need a million martial abilities that do X thing. But an improv'd system has limits that abilities and expectations DON'T. So even a list that says "a character of X level should expect to be able to do Y things with this ability" would help, because it gets everyone on the same page.
 

This is a bit inaccurate.
wait are you saying it's inaccurate that the games I ran went the way I ran them?!? what is inaccurate?

none, but in 4e you didn't have wizards auto ending encounters either. It stripped the magic casters of that power
my answer when asked what martial abilities I had to account for was none... how can you possibly have a way to tell if that is accurate or not? What metric would you use?
While fighters and wizards had similar power sets, their power was not divided equally between encounter and daily powers. Wizards at high levels still had several "dailies" that were absolute game changers in combat.
okay, I don't know where anything I said about the biggest things (especially talking about plane shifting as an action) not being wizard spells makes you think that all classes didn't have big daily at 15th+ level that could change a fight?

Wizards and in general spell/magic people did not have a monopoly on it though, and none of it was SO game changing that it would auto win or avoid entire sets of encounters.
I ran 4e from 3rd all the way to 25th, and when the wizard decided to bust out a daily....it was a brand new ballgame.
please name a daily that a wizard could pop that would do that. I would love to see that play report. Remember though it is being compared to fighter warlord ranger and rogue 25th level dailies too.
However, the difference was that fighters did have some neat encounter and daily powers that let them pull off some crazy tricks, and their paragon and epic destiny abilities gave them "hookey" powers that let them change up the encounter as well here and there.
everyone got cool paragon and epic class add ons... for the first 2 campaigns I ran/played we all had abilities with some form of "once per day when you die..." as the verbiage.
 

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