D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

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The 'utility' martials have gotten so far is proficiency with one more skill.
Fighter did not gain an extra proficiency, its list it could choose from gained one I believe. I believe the Champion gained a proficiency, which is not the same as the Fighter gaining one. There needs to be utility baked into the base class. This is another problem caused by the Fighter trying to be all archetypes is that it relies on the subclass to carry even more load, which waters down the subclass as it has to make up for the base class shortages before it can even start doing its own thing.
 
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Another claim I want to debunk is that not needing to spend resources to act and having greater base defence + HP, means that when spellcasters are low on HP and running low or out of slots the martial classes will carry the day. NO, that is when the adventuring day ends unless the DM has to add reasons to force continuation and when the DM has to add in such contrivances to cover design decisions problems will add up further.

This isn't even really a spellcaster vs. warrior issue either. It's a fundamental dramatic flaw in the attrition-based model: people are fascinated by fair fights, not attrition. Nobody wants to hear the story of how Conan killed the mighty Heracles because Heracles had already been poisoned by a hydra and lost his weapons to a rust monster and blinded by a hag's curse. I mean, Combat As War players will accept the victory, but even they won't exult in it and retell the story like they would if they'd managed to beat Heracles "at full strength". It feels kind of cheap, and likewise if you're playing Heracles it feels like a bit of an anticlimactic way to lose too. It's not unrealistic, just... gritty rather than dramatic.

If you mostly give up on attrition as a model, for instance by modeling Heracles' fighting skills by a 95% probability of dodging incoming blows instead of through with a pile of 200 ablative HP (and by giving wizards just enough energy to cast one large spell every few minutes instead of several huge spells and many large spells per day), then either:

1.) Heracles dies (5% of the time or whatever) to a hydra or hag or whatever before he ever meets Conan, which means those fights are all dramatically interesting: there's a chance the answer to "Will Heracles survive?" is "No!" which is a better dramatic question than "Will Heracles suffer some attrition?"

2.) Heracles suffers a SERIOUS setback like losing an arm or his weapons, before meeting up with Conan. Conan has him at a qualitative tactical disadvantage here, not just a simple numerical HP disadvantage, and Heracles is the underdog now.

3.) Heracles comes through the prior fights unscathed and Conan dramatically fights him "at full power".

Overall that's a big improvement in potential dramatic stakes relative to the attrition model. Since I switched from 5E to DFRPG I've found that I now very rarely feel bored as a GM and want to fast forward through meaningless trashfights with mooks, because now they're not meaningless! There are always dramatic stakes, even though as GM I still know that it's my job to lose over and over, because there's still something the bad guys could accomplish that has a lasting impact, as opposed to just using up HP and spell points.

TL;DR "Who'd win, James Bond or Gandalf?" interests more people than "Who'd win, James Bond in the middle of Casino Royale (2007) or Gandalf after fighting the Balrog?"
 



I mean, they are baked into D&D 5E: just look at how many things have resistance or immunity to non-magical damage. You gotta have that stuff. PF2 just puts it into the numbers
Ennnhh. It's different just in general with how attacking works in both systems with tiers of success, the impact of creature level on AC, etc.

But in general, the PF2e equipment system is one that sacrifices verisimilitude for balance in a way that 5e doesn’t (for both good and ill). The equipment you get, you only get at a level appropriate for you to get it. Until you get to that appropriate level, it's inaccessible. You won't find it in shops or crypts or wherever. After you hit that level, suddenly it's findable.. It keeps things balanced, but it doesn't fit how you'd expect a world to work.

With that said, one of the things I do like about PF2e, is how it employs resistances and weaknesses. You either don't have (or it's been forever since I've seen) "generic resistance to nonmagical damage". Typically you see resistance or weakness to damage with particular tags. And that resistance or weakness applies to both weapons and spells with those tags.

It makes it such that the resistances and weaknesses feel tied to the world rather than like they're just tools for game designers to put martials on the back foot.
 
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Tbh, most of these dependencies can just be given away as magic items or blessings like Helm of Teleportation, well of worlds
 

Tbh, most of these dependencies can just be given away as magic items or blessings like Helm of Teleportation, well of worlds

But that doesn't really help the core idea. The core idea is that the OP wanted to make high level martials less reliant on magic. Giving them magical items to rely on instead, while it works, is very similar to saying "Fine, I'll only give you six instead of half a dozen" you aren't really... changing anything.

Now, I think I agree that long range teleportation or planar travel is just always going to be magical. The real question, I think, is availability. Because with things like making teleportation circles activatable with just a code, you really are moving them into a more common and more widely-used space, because anyone can use them.
 

Now, I think I agree that long range teleportation or planar travel is just always going to be magical. The real question, I think, is availability. Because with things like making teleportation circles activatable with just a code, you really are moving them into a more common and more widely-used space, because anyone can use them
Teleportation and planar circles don't have to be magical.

You could write them into the core fabric of the skill system. But it would require accepting detail skill check effects and a more complex core game.
 


Why is your cantrip not similar damage?

Typically 3d8 or d10 by 11th level. Fighter is dealing 3d weapon +stat. It’s not all that far off. And the non fighters only ever get two attacks.
The cantrip is doing 14 damage on a 3d8? A fighter is consistantly banging out more than 14 damage. Hell a rogue can beat 14 damage consistently let alone a fighter.
 

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