D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

I do want to note that I can appreciate the value of narrative justifications for fantasy powers as a set of worldbuilding tools.

I like that there can be a whole portfolio of reasons for a character to gain the ability to do something fantastic. Demigods, dragon-touched, and demonspawn are all completely cromulent character concepts to me.

I simply do not think they need to be coded into the levelling mechanics of the game. I think that doing so limits the game unnecessarily.

Though.. with that said, I think it'd be interesting if the game baked more consideration into the specifics of how PCs get the power ups that they do. If, instead of leveling and getting whatever the book says they get, they could quest for powers.

You want to fly -
go see that alchemist or
perform x ritual at that temple,
bargain with that fey,
get x magic item from y enemy.

Like, if the concern with leveling is how we're handwaving the narrative, maybe we could just take a narrative approach instead.

That is my concern. Just don't handwave the narrative. Go through it, and earn your cool powers.

 

[Yaarel]

There’s lots of monsters that do amazing things that are impossible in reality but aren’t even considered magical in D&D. A dragon’s fire breath, the existence of oozes. Saying that someone is so good at a skill that they can do something unusual or even impossible doesn’t seem like a huge leap, in my mind.

Recently, dragonbreath is fully magic. You can see this clarification in the recent description of Dragonborn, for example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Recently, dragonbreath is fully magic. You can see this clarification in the recent description of Dragonborn, for example.

I admit it's hard for me to not see dragonborn as magical creatures.

 

[TheSword]

Has anyone actually codified the magical dependencies? What actions are essential in 5e that currently need casters four that a group without a caster can’t achieve without them? Are they actual dependencies or just conveniences - like a caster plane shifted because it’s easier than locating a portal. Or just waiting the 10 minutes for the wall of force to end.

 

[Hussar]

The dragonborn fighter is more capable than a mundane earth human. He breathes fire, has resistance to it, and can even manifest wings from it. They are gifts from his ORIGIN, which is dragonborn, not his class.

So I'll turn the question back: how does the fighter class justify the ability to breathe fire, resist fire attacks and manifest wings? The dragonborn does it because he was made by Bahamut's blood and carries both a bit of divinity and draconic power in his lineage. Explain why fighters would get the same.

Because I am ALL ABOUT a dragonknight that has been touched by draconic power and can do all those things and more. That's hella cool. I'm not about Bob the farm boy turned soldier getting them because he killed enough goblins.

Well, how do we justify that a rogue can dodge fire. As in automatically reduces damage to the point of taking no damage.

Something no other being in the universe can do because no other being can do it to virtually any energy attack.

The rogue being able to dodge that giant’s club (but only once per six seconds ) doesn’t need a supernatural explanation. Why does the fighter?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Does it state anywhere that humans of the Realms can naturally do things beyond what humans in all our actual experience can? What book is that in?

Yes. It is in the PHB. And all the Forgotten Realms books. I mean, I certainly don't think that I could be trained to to drink the fading life force of a fallen enemy, but in the Forgotten Realms a Long Death monk can do exactly that with martial arts training.

 

[Yaarel]

I admit it's hard for me to not see dragonborn as magical creatures.

Yeah.

Lizardfolk can be nonmagic.

But Dragonborn is inviting the dragon archetype and its magically conflating dangerous aspects of nature.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I didn't say we need to limit the martials to human limits.

I'm just stating the current definitions of Human, Inhuman, Superhuman, and Mythic in 5e.

Not I think pure nonmagical martials should be allowed to reach Superhuman and in rare cases mythic. Magical martials can already.

Except those categories aren't listed anywhere in DnD in any capacity? So you are basically creating categories then filling those categories with the things you designed to fit them.

Again, you are stating "human means this" but I'm pointing out that either half-vampire minotaurs are human, or "human" in DnD doesn't look like a normal earthling.

 

[Yaarel]

Well, how do we justify that a rogue can dodge fire. As in automatically reduces damage to the point of taking no damage.

Part of it is perceptiveness that can see the explosion coming and reflexes to respond in time.

Split seconds matter.


Because fire arms can ignore armor, I feel the best mechanic is a Dexterity saving throw, to represent a bullet piercing the armor. The save would be for all or nothing. But a rapid-fire gun or a shot gun, would have a spray that deals damage, in which case the it would be save for all or half. In all of these cases involving a save, the Rogue perceptiveness and reflexes would also apply.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not really no. Not for me. That explanation, by itself, seems too hand-wavey for me.

Sure, you can feel it is hand-wavey. There are at least two distinct genres of fantasy literature that use "I trained hard enough to get this power" as their baseline. So, it isn't too handwavey for me.