D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Hussar]

Does it state anywhere that humans of the Realms can naturally do things beyond what humans in all our actual experience can? What book is that in?

Why is being a 15th level fighter related to what a human can “naturally “ do? No one is claiming all humans need to fly. But is there a particular reason we’re insisting that a double digit level fighter (or any class really) is in any way a “natural” thing?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Part of it is perceptiveness that can see the explosion coming and reflexes to respond in time.

Split seconds matter.

But they can do it while trapped in a room that is wholly encompassed by fire. I mean, you can make up a mundane reason (it’s not actually explained in the book) or demand a magical reason. To me, it’s all fluff.

 

[Yaarel]

But they can do it while trapped in a room that is wholly encompassed by fire. I mean, you can make a mundane reason or demand a magical reason. To me, it’s all fluff.

I try to visualize it as things like covering ones face with ones arm or shirt, just in time, and that kind of thing to mitigate the damage.

The damage mitigation doesnt come from jumping out of the way, otherwise, they would be making Jump Checks and Move distances. It is about reflexes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Part of it is perceptiveness that can see the explosion coming and reflexes to respond in time.

Split seconds matter.


Because fire arms can ignore armor, I feel the best mechanic is a Dexterity saving throw, to represent a bullet piercing the armor. The save would be for all or nothing. But a rapid-fire gun or a shot gun, would have a spray that deals damage, in which case the it would be save for all or half. In all of these cases involving a save, the Rogue perceptiveness and reflexes would also apply.

So a rogue can step between the flames of an explosion, and slide past the shockwave of force, without moving more than 5 ft from the center.... and that ISN'T supernatural, just good reflexes and perception?

 

[Yaarel]

Why is being a 15th level fighter related to what a human can “naturally “ do? No one is claiming all humans need to fly. But is there a particular reason we’re insisting that a double digit level fighter (or any class really) is in any way a “natural” thing?

In my adventures, flight is possible during the Professional tier (5−8) and routine during the Master tier (9−12).

One way or an other, every Master character will acquire some way to fly.

For a while, with the Fairy species and similar, it looked 5e was making flight normal at level 1. That would be disruptive to my setting and balance. I am glad 5e seems to be backing away from that.

At the lowest tier, natural Wings is possible, but these require an Action to move a Fly Speed rather than a Move. So the wings are mostly useless in combat during the lowest tier.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I try to visualize it as things like covering ones face with ones arm or shirt, just in time, and that kind of thing to mitigate the damage.

The damage mitigation doesnt come from jumping out of the way, otherwise, they would be making Jump Checks and Move distances. It is about reflexes.

exactly. It's just imagination. You can, literally, make up any reason you want for why it works. I could also say the rogue phases out of reality for a split second and that would be just as reasonable. But I'm perfectly happy to make this impossible feat a totally mundane, non-magical task for a rogue. And it perfectly counters one of a wizards big strengths.

 

[Hussar]

Part of it is perceptiveness that can see the explosion coming and reflexes to respond in time.

Split seconds matter.


Because fire arms can ignore armor, I feel the best mechanic is a Dexterity saving throw, to represent a bullet piercing the armor. The save would be for all or nothing. But a rapid-fire gun or a shot gun, would have a spray that deals damage, in which case the it would be save for all or half. In all of these cases involving a save, the Rogue perceptiveness and reflexes would also apply.

But it is superhuman. As in no other human can do this. It is literally superhuman.

Zero explanation. Not even handwavium.

Rogues get to be mythic. And serve as an excellent template for what a non-magical mythic character looks like.

That’s why nobody ever bitches about rogues in these conversations. For some bizarre reason it’s only fighters that must never gain any sort of mythic qualities as they level up.

 

[Gammadoodler]

That is my concern. Just don't handwave the narrative. Go through it, and earn your cool powers.

I get that. It isn't how D&D works.

Almost nothing in D&D cares about the narrative of what you did to level up.

Everyone levels the same. But rewards are distributed unequally, particularly at high levels.

Casters haven't done more narratively to earn this. It's just unequal mechanics.

If we had a game that did care about the narrative to distribute powers. Or if Casters had to do more to "earn" their cool powers, the unequal distribution could make sense.

As is. It doesn't.

 

[Yaarel]

So a rogue can step between the flames of an explosion, and slide past the shockwave of force, without moving more than 5 ft from the center.... and that ISN'T supernatural, just good reflexes and perception?

I see no contradiction between being BOTH magical AND having "Remarkable" reflexes and perceptiveness.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. It is in the PHB. And all the Forgotten Realms books. I mean, I certainly don't think that I could be trained to to drink the fading life force of a fallen enemy, but in the Forgotten Realms a Long Death monk can do exactly that with martial arts training.

Supernatural martial arts training. An explanation why they can do things others humans can't.