D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

No, no one is saying that. That was a sidebar that @Remathilis started. No one is claimign that all humans shoudl be able to do stuff earth humans can't. What is being said is that very high level fighters should be able to do things that humans can.

So, if you need an in-universe explanation for things, what is the in-universe explanation for high level rogue abilities, which are clearly superhuman and doing things no human can do. No human can dodge fireballs. It's flat out impossible for any human to dodge a fireball. Cannot be done. Yet, a rogue (and to be fair, a monk) can. What's the "in-universe" explanation that is explicitly stated in the Player's Handbook? Or any other book for that matter?

And if it's not explicitly stated, and you're okay with that, why the double standard for fighters?

@Gammadoodler does seem to be saying that, unless I'm misunderstanding them. My original replay was, I think, to them actually.

 

[James Gasik]

Has anyone actually codified the magical dependencies? What actions are essential in 5e that currently need casters four that a group without a caster can’t achieve without them? Are they actual dependencies or just conveniences - like a caster plane shifted because it’s easier than locating a portal. Or just waiting the 10 minutes for the wall of force to end.

I was just watching some of The Gauntlet videos on Youtube; if you're not familiar, it's a test of high powered builds, to see if they can tackle a nasty solo adventure with the aid of two NPC sidekicks. In the last battle, you have to stop a Mind Flayer Arcanist from finishing a ritual after defeating his goons.

The last video I saw, the player's character died, the Expert NPC died, and the warrior remained...but it was basically over at that point because the Arcanist was protected by a Wall of Force, so even if they miraculously defeated the minions, they couldn't stop the Mind Flayer from doing what they were up to.

This is a problem that only has a magical solution, and this was only a level 14 adventure.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The explanation in Wuxia is taken for granted as the qi. Similarly in Norse, with comparable hamr. This is the bodily aura of lifeforce and its extensive influence.

In D&D this "innate" magic is explicitly magical. Like psionics, Humans have it too.

But it doesn't say that anywhere. Fighters, rogues and (to a lesser degree) barbarians are presented as nonsupernatural classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It seems a pretty arbitrary bar though. Flying without magic is pretty common in things like Wuxia. There's no explanation for it. They just can. Now, okay, throwing a mountain might be a bit much. But, instead of "killing" an enemy through intimidation, how about simply making them run away (Fear effect)? Then again, Monks get a death attack without any magical explanation. And can literally turn invisible. Or is "ki" enough handwavium?

Ki is a supernatural explanation.

 

[Yaarel]

Ki is a supernatural explanation.

5e decides that both "ki" and "psionics" are magic.

So the tradition of Martial being nonmagic is now vague and requires an update to explain where its superhuman capabilities are coming from.

There must be an explanation for a superhuman Martial, because these Martial versus spellcaster debates are starting to feel alignment debates. The issue of Fighter players feeling shut out of noncombat and spellcaster players feeling the envy and spite from Fighter players, are unfun pain points.

The game cannot end at level 8, when a nonmagic Fighter runs out of plausible "realistic" explanations.

The D&D game must continue advancing to higher tiers, with or without the Fighter, and hopefully with a superhuman Fighter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You don't need a deity for a cleric. Nor a paladin for that matter. What explanation is there for a druid's wildshape? And, considering there are a shopping list of reasons why your sorcerer casts spells, up to and including, "just because", I'm thinking that the bar is kinda low.

All those classes explicitly get their power from a supernatural source, within or without. Even the sorcerer has this. Its not, "just because", it's, "you don't know". There is still an explanation.

 

[James Gasik]

It seems pretty apparent to me that the D&D definition of supernatural is somewhat different than the real world definition. You live in a world where a snake chicken can turn you into solid rock, weird bugs can cause metal objects to turn to rust instantly, and your buddy the Fire Genasi's head is on fire, yet the flames neither produce heat or illumination.

It's been demonstrated that Fighters and Rogues can do things that defy explanation, and the simple existence of hit points allows heroes to survive all sorts of things that would turn a normal slob like you or me into fine paste.

Demanding an explanation beyond "it's a game that takes place within a fantasy world" seems a trifle unnecessary. I mean, there's not even a good explanation for how magic works beyond "the gods did it? Maybe?", and it's the most pervasive thing in the game.

 

[Remathilis]

It seems a pretty arbitrary bar though. Flying without magic is pretty common in things like Wuxia. There's no explanation for it. They just can. Now, okay, throwing a mountain might be a bit much. But, instead of "killing" an enemy through intimidation, how about simply making them run away (Fear effect)? Then again, Monks get a death attack without any magical explanation. And can literally turn invisible. Or is "ki" enough handwavium?

Genre expectation is still a thing, and if the fighter were designed to emulate Wuxia swordsmen, I would be far more lenient on flying (For what it's worth, flight in Wuxia is part of the mastery of chi, meaning its closer to monks than fighter). Regardless, it does have an explanation, even if it's an assumed one by the audience rather than one restated in every movie.

And ki/spirit is absolutely handwavium enough. To be fair, "primal spirits" involved in a barbarian's rage is enough. Most of the subclasses fighter's and rogues have given me sufficient handwavium like psionics, durnamancy, or rune magic. But if the CORE class is doing supernatural things, the core class needs a handwavium power source too.

 

[Krachek]

Yeah, 5e decides that both "ki" and "psionics" are magic.

So the tradition of Martial being nonmagic is now vague and requires an update to explain what its superhuman capabilities are.

Recently I play a monk into an orc and goblins adventure.
I present it as an instinctive warrior, kicking, biting, striking vulnerable spot by instinct, I transform the monk into a savage brutal half orc.
nobody around the table argue against that.
mundane, magical, supernatural are highly subjective into a fantasy game.

 

[Yaarel]

Recently I play a monk into an orc and goblins adventure.
I present it as an instinctive warrior, kicking, biting, striking vulnerable spot by instinct, I transform the monk into a savage brutal half orc.
nobody around the table argue against that.
mundane, magical, supernatural are highly subjective into a fantasy game.

Occasionally there are mechanical considerations, like some Monk powers wont work in an antimagic zone. Would your DM waive this?

your buddy the Fire Genasi's head is on fire, yet the flames neither produce heat or illumination.

For the sake of narrative adjudication, I would require mechanical explanation for the fiery illumination.

If it is the Light cantrip, fine. If it is a perpetual nonmagical torch, fine. But can the Genasi even turn off this fire-hair? If so, how? As a DM, I need to know these things. They have situational story implications.