D&D 5E Martials should just get free feats

[GMforPowergamers]

Detracting from fighters? Good for the game. Detracting from the mighty wizards? Bad.

I say thee nay.

caster
supremacy
it's baked in and when you try to change it you would have an easier time fighting your government

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I agree 100% that Wizards are more powerful than fighters. If you need to fix it though, then fix the disparity itself - which is spell casting!

or give the fighters a subsystem that allows them to opt into (say through making a new class or a subclass) and let them have the same type of options so they can make out of combat as usefule as a wizard even if it's diffrent ways

The prevailing argument here is we need to make the fighter even better at what he is already the best in the game.

I agree... giving them more damage is not the answer.

a martial die like the battle master or psi knight that allows the use of a bunch of social and exploration abilities on par with utility spells of 3rd, 4th, and 5th level given out at level 11+ (so after full casters already have 6th level slots) would be a start

That will mean other players who WANT TO DO THAT THING (melee) won't be able to do it well at all.

this is why I suggest breaking the fighter into 3 based on the 3 subclasses in the PHB, keep a champion style simple fighter (they can even keep the name) give us a half caster like the sword mage or magus or dusk blade, and a complex warlord or warblade or sword sage.

That is not good and it is not consistent with the bounded accuracy design of 5E.

we already hve expertise in skills breaking that, and spells that are Save or suck... so

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The fighter is best as single target damage from a non-rogue, non-Paladin, not melee combat because melee combat is more than damage. The desire is to make them better at combat by giving them things to actually do.

A hexblade, a college of valor bard, a college of swords bard, and even a wizard blade singer are as good at 9th and 10th level as any fighter... they have 1 or 2 less hp per level comprable and is some cases better AC the same attack the same number of attacks and on top of that have 5th level spell slots.

The war cleric and the druid if combat made can out perform all of the above AND self heal

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I check out some things in the DM guide and the PHB.

Social interaction is the term used to describe interacting with an NPC and usually reach a certain goal. Role playing is usually associated with social interaction and influence the resolve of the interaction. PHB say that we use dice and check to finally resolve the interaction, but the DM guide say that some DM prefer to simply let talk the players and don’t use dice.

I love that you take

some DM prefer to simply let talk the players and don’t use dice.

and don't realize that means that some DM prefer to simply let the players use dice.

The term “encounter” is solely use for what look like a combat encounters with all its variant. See DMG page 81. The objectives for PCs may vary, and sometimes the objective is to avoid combat but overall it cover mainly what most people think about when we say “roll initiative”. In fact it is there that the casters can handle more diverse objectives with better chance of succes. If the encounters is a basic combat Fighter will perform well. If the objectives require movement, protection, avoidance and so on, caster will more shine.

except teh caster can choose... the non caster can not. THe casters (especially prep and SUPER especially cleric/druid prep where you know every spell) can say "Today I feel like throwing damage" and "Today I feel like locking down monsters" and "Today I feel kinda like I want diviniation for a mystery" or "Today I want to focus on movement and special circumstance"

and the big trick is that by level 5 or 6 the caster can say "I will prep 1/2 combat spells 1/3 movement/invorment spells and the rest will be social and divination... oh and I know some divination rituals too"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or alternatively you could go to a 4E design where you had mechanical parity and things for different classes just had different names with largely the same mechanics.

i wouldn't say it that way, but close enough.

I don't want a fighter throwing a teleport, but being able to jump like the jump spell or grabe and hold walls like spider climb, or even disrupt a spell being cast in range like counter spell all seem like martial abilities...
Healing through inspiration is cool on living targets, but a quick burst of the fantasy equivalent of CPR could do what revivify does.

4e had an aura where everyone that started in it took 1w damage sounds fine to me too.

COme and get it was not a fire ball

an ability to fast talk and make a target make a cha save or gain the charmed condition seems fine to me.

taking a deep breath and asking the spirit of your father to give you guidance as to where to go then finding the secret door is right out of princess bride

knocking prone, stunning, and disarming all seem to be perfect ideas

5th level legend lore could be meditating and asking the spirits of all the warriors you descend from to help you find some big clue (like optimus traveling into the matrix)

Not just magic, spells. If you made it so fighter kept all the ebilities they currently have and started full caster progression at level 4 then they would be pretty balanced.

someone suggesteed to us that if you gestalt fighter and rogue and let the player take both subclasses (but bar the eldritch knight and arcane tricketer from stacking) you still don't outshine war cleric or blade singers...

 

[Krachek]

I love that you take

and don't realize that means that some DM prefer to simply let the players use dice.


except teh caster can choose... the non caster can not. THe casters (especially prep and SUPER especially cleric/druid prep where you know every spell) can say "Today I feel like throwing damage" and "Today I feel like locking down monsters" and "Today I feel kinda like I want diviniation for a mystery" or "Today I want to focus on movement and special circumstance"

and the big trick is that by level 5 or 6 the caster can say "I will prep 1/2 combat spells 1/3 movement/invorment spells and the rest will be social and divination... oh and I know some divination rituals too"

i just show that social interaction can be interpreted and play way differently. Of course some DM prefer roll dice, but combat encounters are run much more the same way by all and we see only very rare exception where DM don’t use dice for combat encounters.

And I agree that casters allow thinker and smart players to run the show over players that simply want to be there, roleplay, and follow the group and the story. Those players still need classes and build that require less management and thinking.

If the game give martial classes as much options as casters then thinker and active players will simply run the show with any classes. Is it a better thing? they already try to offer all classes the same experience and options in 4ed. Will they try it again with one DND? Not sure.

But I think it is pretty easy to adapt existing classes to fluff a complex martial class. Just tweak the frame of paladin, Ranger, warlock and fluff a selection of spells into martial abilities you will have what you ask for.
The OP did right. He home brew his game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

i wouldn't say it that way, but close enough.

I don't want a fighter throwing a teleport, but being able to jump like the jump spell or grabe and hold walls like spider climb, or even disrupt a spell being cast in range like counter spell all seem like martial abilities...
Healing through inspiration is cool on living targets, but a quick burst of the fantasy equivalent of CPR could do what revivify does.

4e had an aura where everyone that started in it took 1w damage sounds fine to me too.

COme and get it was not a fire ball

an ability to fast talk and make a target make a cha save or gain the charmed condition seems fine to me.

taking a deep breath and asking the spirit of your father to give you guidance as to where to go then finding the secret door is right out of princess bride

knocking prone, stunning, and disarming all seem to be perfect ideas

5th level legend lore could be meditating and asking the spirits of all the warriors you descend from to help you find some big clue (like optimus traveling into the matrix)


someone suggesteed to us that if you gestalt fighter and rogue and let the player take both subclasses (but bar the eldritch knight and arcane tricketer from stacking) you still don't outshine war cleric or blade singers...

They are exaggerating certainly, but there were an awful lot of class powers that functionally did the same thing for different classes with different names.

 

[Krachek]

This debate make me think about theory for work team composition IRL work.
for example
Honey's Five Team Roles

• LEADER: makes sure team has clear objectives and members are engaged. ...
• CHALLENGER: questions effectiveness and drives for results. ...
• DOER: encourages progress and takes on practical jobs. ...
• THINKER: produces ideas and thinks through those proposed by others. ...
• SUPPORTER: eases tension and promotes harmony.

They show that an efficient team work is composed of various capacities and role.
Maybe a party can use the same theory and work better if players play different roles with different tools and objective.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No one I have replied to has given a specific example or experience articulating the alleged problem.

let me then

I ran a game for newbies (more or less) at a game store that has sense closed.. I kept in contact with 2 (well 3 but one doesn't count you will see why) of the 6 players.

player 1: never played any RPG but talked to friends about D&D and they wanted to learn
player 2: played back in 1e/2e days and his kids wanted to learn so he came to learn modern game
Player 3 and 4) a couple 1 came from 3e and pathfinder but had skipped 4e and her boyfriend whou had never played
player 5) his mom owned the store he had played some short rpgs but never D&D and she asked me to teach him
player 6) my fiance then just girlfriend, she had a VERY different idea of RP (no not the bed room type...I wish) and she wanted to try it out.

game 0 and 0.5 was 3 hours of basic ideas and 3 hours of char gen (1st level)

my adventure was simple...some kobolds that used to be no issue have been acting as bandits and hitting caravans... but the things stolen don't make much sense... yesterday they attacked a farm and took some food. So town guard was looking for adventurers... and these are who showed up

player 1: elven ranger
player 2: human fighter
Player 3 and 4) hafling monk and teifling cleric
player 5) human fighter
player 6) elven sorcerer
we played 1 session of almost pure rp
we played a session going out and when we did they found kobold scouts and had 1 encounter then retreated back to town (although human fighter 1 did say "You do know we just lost element of surprise when these guys turn up dead or missing")
we played the oddest session of research and prep/healing I have ever had (and that is saying alot)
finally they were out, and going after the kobolds. they found out what was going on... they were trying to make a cake and set of dresses.... cause they were going to a wedding. They fought 5 encounters through 2 sessions ending with the kobold dragon priestess...
they found the goblin king and the ghoul queen were getting married and invited a bunch of tribes of baddies to not only the wedding but an alliance meeting... PCs were shook (and at this point level 2)
We had another (more ordinary) reseach and prep session then a rp session and then were going to find the wedding... I was suprised how easy that hook was,
after running into some goblins they leveled to 3 then they fought a goblin riding a worg.... then an exploration session that ended with one more fight (undead) and most of the way to level 4

player 1 (new to RPGs) was not happy with ranger at all and felt like they needed more to do.
Player 2 was suprised how hard it was to make saves and that fighters did not 'own the battle field"
player 3 thought that a monk sounded fun but really wasn't
player 4 thought the cleric was going to just heal but ended up being the star of melee and spell casting
player 5 was a psycho... like I told the store owner I was afraid of his fantasies but he decided he was going to try to multi into warlock (and his idea for how to contact a demon is NSFW and is something I would normally think about kicking a player out for but he was 8 and instead I tried to coach him on why everyone felt he was being troublesome)
player 6 decided D&D was not for her but to keep our every other week date night she would continue to play but she put in the bare min effort and has not papaer and dice RPed since store closed...

4th level and getting location of the wedding was the BIG game changer... one level of warlock and everyone BUT the cleric (yes even fiancé who was not intrested in game) was like "What is that class it seems awesome...

by level 6 the ranger wanted to respec as a multi class druid feylcok, the 1st human fighter switched to a bard, the halfing monk wanted to switch to halfing rogue with arcane trickster but instead of wizard spells keyed of int cleric keyed off wis and diviniation and healing would be her restrictions... the kid playing the human fighter wanted to switch to a hexblade warlock... my fiancé even said "if I ever try again I think I will go for the warlock" (spoiler it has been 4ish years since this game ended and she never has)

more or less at level 7 we had all new characters (except the cleric and sorcerer)


now I have (of course) stayed in contact with my fiance... but not counting her the player of that first human fighter is now running a game for his 2 kids and there friends and we talk and I help him out... the player of the ranger is running 2 games and I like to talk to them too. Last I heard the store owners son is in therapy and not allowed to play for now.

what did all these new players learn fast... if you want options and cool mechanics you play spell casters. If you want to be a cool mercenary or swordman, still play a caster. you want to play a contomplative wanderer that has weird unque things... play acaster.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

this is a fundamental issue with 5e, honestly. the entire saving throw system is just stupid.

I hate the saving throw system of 3e/5e too

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, it's not—not in the way you want it to be. Anecdotal evidence is useful for existence claims. It cannot prove the kinds of things you want it to prove.

it is the only thign we have... no one on here has better then anecedotal evidence of anything dealing with this game... some of us have more some less.
@Umbran said:

EzekielRaidan has a point. A good way to say this might be that anecdotal evidence is not data. Anecdotal evidence does not generalize. Anecdotal evidence is effectively self-selected polling, and does not provide a representative sample from which one can make broad claims.

again, useing that logic there is nothing to discus... we don't have better data and we can't get better data... the only thing we can do is share our experiences.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

They are exaggerating certainly, but there were an awful lot of class powers that functionally did the same thing for different classes with different names.

liek I said, close enough

 

[GMforPowergamers]

i just show that social interaction can be interpreted and play way differently. Of course some DM prefer roll dice, but combat encounters are run much more the same way by all and we see only very rare exception where DM don’t use dice for combat encounters.

so if we rarely see combat done that way you understand the divide between player skill and character skill.

And I agree that casters allow thinker and smart players to run the show over players that simply want to be there, roleplay, and follow the group and the story. Those players still need classes and build that require less management and thinking.

again split up the martial roles more so those smart players can choose to be martial OR caster...

If the game give martial classes as much options as casters then thinker and active players will simply run the show with any classes. Is it a better thing?

yes... more options = better.... instead of "all teh experienced people that know how to game the system ignore 3-5 classes, and as such loose access to entrie concepts/

they already try to offer all classes the same experience and options in 4ed. Will they try it again with one DND? Not sure.

and I like 4e as the best D&D

But I think it is pretty easy to adapt existing classes to fluff a complex martial class. Just tweak the frame of paladin, Ranger, warlock and fluff a selection of spells into martial abilities you will have what you ask for.
The OP did right. He home brew his game.

we often refluff sword bard or hexblade as our fighters... sometinmes warcleric or even once a druid

 

[Krachek]

so if we rarely see combat done that way you understand the divide between player skill and character skill.

again split up the martial roles more so those smart players can choose to be martial OR caster...

yes... more options = better.... instead of "all teh experienced people that know how to game the system ignore 3-5 classes, and as such loose access to entrie concepts/

and I like 4e as the best D&D

we often refluff sword bard or hexblade as our fighters... sometinmes warcleric or even once a druid

Then your are doomed.
5ed don’t fill your needs, and for what I see from the one dnd playtest it will be worse for you In the future. Prepared spells for everyone, spell preparation linked to spell slots won’t satisfied creative players. The game will be easier and more straightforward than actual edition. That is normal since they aim a large audience of new players.

You will have to continue home brew and play 4ed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then your are doomed.
5ed don’t fill your needs, and for what I see from the one dnd playtest it will be worse for you In the future. Prepared spells for everyone, spell preparation linked to spell slots won’t satisfied creative players. The game will be easier and more straightforward than actual edition. That is normal since they aim a large audience of new players.

You will have to continue home brew and play 4ed.

Yup. WotC does not have the best interests of a lot of people here at heart. They're aiming for a bigger fish that only swallows softer, less flavorful bait.

 

[Krachek]

Yup. WotC does not have the best interests of a lot of people here at heart. They're aiming for a bigger fish that only swallows softer, less flavorful bait.

Indeed, we have here a bunch of specialists, gamers, designers, like 1:1000 players.

 

[FallenRX]

this is why I suggest breaking the fighter into 3 based on the 3 subclasses in the PHB, keep a champion style simple fighter (they can even keep the name) give us a half caster like the sword mage or magus or dusk blade, and a complex warlord or warblade or sword sage.

That is already what we have in the game...for the exact same reason.

Though people see me giving free feats as just giving martials more damage, but it actively does give them way more utility too, if not more than damage, there is more utility feats than damage feats lol.

This method is giving martials a versatile platform to basically do anything, more damage? Sure, More utility sure, more spells and special moves? sure, trying to argue it is jsut giving them damage isnt at all true, since you can use feats as a immediate platform for any build idea.

From a Pseudo Casters, by taking magic, and artifice initiate, to a skill based class using Skilled, prodigy and Skill Expert.
There is a lot to do

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then your are doomed.

how cheery....
because we disagre on a game I am doomed.
cause wotc never listens or redoes concepts...

I don't get this, I am only not getting what I want if I stop pushing for it... as long as I push sooner or later just like at the end of 3.5 they will come through

5ed don’t fill your needs,

that I why I suggest changes

and for what I see from the one dnd playtest it will be worse for you In the future.

only if I do as you suggest and "shut up and go away"

Prepared spells for everyone, spell preparation linked to spell slots won’t satisfied creative players. The game will be easier and more straightforward than actual edition. That is normal since they aim a large audience of new players.

You will have to continue home brew and play 4ed.

or I can keep banigng my drum and hope enough people agree and join me to get WotC to change there minds.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That is already what we have in the game...for the exact same reason.

no it isn't

as long as all three are forced into only subclass of a single class we do not have what I suggested, 3 separate classes

Though people see me giving free feats as just giving martials more damage, but it actively does give them way more utility too, if not more than damage, there is more utility feats than damage feats lol.

correct, and if you go back to my example build I didn't take sharp shooter or GWM I took lucky and two feats that give misc abailities... so I totally see what you are trying, I just feel it isn't enouigh.

There is a lot to do

did you miss my example buildd?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

lets imagine a 9th level fighter... this is when they are are (by raw) the worst, they have not gotten there 3rd attack and they do not have much other then hp to speak of.


Okay so lets make a quick champion (RAW) the arrya is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8
So lets say I am a dex build... I will fight with a rapier(refluff as elven longsword) and longbow I am making a 2014phb half elf with the high elf (so I can get a cantrip) as my race.

So I am putting 10 into str 15 and +1 into dex 13 and +1 into con 8 into int 14 into wis and 12 into cha that gets +2
I get action surge and second wind each 1/sr indomintable 1/long rest
defensive figtingg style gives me +1 AC
I get 3 normal ASI plus your 2 feats
I am taking prestidigitation at will
I make 2 attacks per attack action and I crit on a 19+
I add half prof to str dex and can checks (including skills) that I don't add prof too...
I am going to up my dex to 18 with 1 ASI, take defensive duelist with another, then fey touched for detect magic and misty step each 1/ day and I get to boost my int to a 9.
Your two bonus are easy... lucky and shadow touched for invisability and disguise self and boosting that int to a 10.


So I end up with Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 CHa 14
1 cantrip at will 2 2nd level spells at 1/day 2 1st level spells at 1/day +1 to my AC add prof to 1 hit as reaction as well 3 luck pts for rerolls 1 indomitable for rerolls and action surge and second wind.... I have 9d10HD so about 70hp most likely an AC 18 with +4 against 1 target as a reaction.
I attack twice with a 1d8+4 and attack with a +8 to hit.


now lets make a hexblade warlorck.

also a half elf, this time no house rule boosts
at level 9 I have 2 5th level spell slots (short rest) 9 spells kknown between 1st and 5th I have 2 attacks for 1d8+5 and my attacks are at +9 my save DCs are also at 17 and my AC is 17 and my HD is 9d8
its much closer then I thought...

I hope by reposing this we can get back to the topic... but I bet I will see 5-9 argueing about if the fighter needs a fix and 1 or 2 more suggesting that nothing we say matters to MAYBE 1 about the topic of the thread,,,