D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

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tetrasodium

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And my point is, without casters present - martials won't hold up as well either. Upthread, I gave several examples of how casters aid the fight significantly without doing a point of damage.

Casters contribute differently, not worse.

But your "non fiat" is itself pretty big DM fiat. More importantly, the conditions and posting restrictions are enough to render the challenge meaningless.



True, but DMs tend to error on the side of letting the caster have those items - at least much of the time.

Most campaigns, by mid-high levels the PCs are swimming in enough cash to afford costly components.
If it's so objectionable, why did the folks claiming caster superiority not work out some exception that puts reasonable spell components & some similar equivalent on the martials before starting the test intending to show how much is being ignored to claim that superiority? Part of the reason we are on page 16 is because there has been so much "um actually no, the game rules don't work that way" and similar being called on the folks claiming caster superiority. "I need components for my spells on this list"> "ok how about we give the fighter x to make it even" or something would probably have been an easy negotiation had it not been ignored like the pile of other things ignored up till then.
 

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  • As long as DMG guidelines are followed, this can be somewhat enforced. BUT, gaming time being what it is, the party is likely to have more 1- and 2- encounter days than 8- or 10- encounter days, favoring spellcasters overall;
What does 'gaming time' have to do with long rests? There is no rule in the DMG that says people get a long rest at the end of a session.
  • Non-combat encounters also tend to favor spellcasters, as there are quite a few spells that allow them to participate, while apart from rogues, non-spellcasters tend to have fewer options outside of combat;

Name those spells.

And explain how they're both more useful than say a Rogue with reliable talent and expertise in Persuasion and Insight, even before you get to the problem casting a spell in front of the King, an important NPC or any other social encounter might cause.

  • While non-spellcasters can shine in combat, spellcasters can also do well in combat, and adding extra opponents tends to favor spellcasters over non-spellcasters.
But those abilities to shine out of combat generally use the same resources used to shine in combat. If you want to Charm an NPC, Teleport to the Dungeon, and Fly up a wall, you're burning resources that are needed in the combat encounters for that day.

Riding a horse, using Persuasion and climbing a rope are all just as effective and dont use resources at all.
  • The options that spellcasters have during downtime also tends to overshadow the options that non-spellcasters have;
That's not my reading of the downtime rules.
  • Though not universal, DMs tend to be more willing to interpret spells broadly, while limiting non-spellcasters to “realistic” ac
I absolutely agree here. But again, this is a DM problem. They'll happily nerf the naughty word out of martials (fumble rules, exhaustion on 0 HP, instant death from falls or magma or assasinations, flanking, banning feats like GWM etc) all of which exessively punish martals by depriving them of their class features (or worse yet; punishing them for using them and doing their jobs).

If a DM wants to implement stupid houserules to punish martials, and not police the AD, then of course they're gonna suck.
  • Overall, the DM has to play a more active role to rein in casters. This can be tiring for a DM, or, if the DM focusses on other aspects of the game, can lead to casters overshadowing non-casters.
To an extent also true. This comes with experience of high level play (far too many DMs rage quit in the mid levels when an unexpected power or spell wrecks thier adventure, resulting in them having no experience with high level play).

But again, this is also a fault of the DM; not a fault of the game.
A DM who is running a political/military “Game of Thrones” campaign (lots of Humanoid enemies), can have the entire game wreaked by a wizard with Hypnotic Pattern and a bunch of enchantment spells.
Only if he lets it happen. If the PC wizard exists, then those spells are known and countered for. Enemy troops have a wizard of their own for example, and soldiers know to wake up comrades affected by the spell.

Otherwise the DM is (again) giving the caster a leg up by allowing them to play a wizard in what is (ostensibly) a low magic campaign.

Again; this is the fault of the DM - not a fault of the rules.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
If it's so objectionable, why did the folks claiming caster superiority not work out some exception that puts reasonable spell components & some similar equivalent on the martials before starting the test intending to show how much is being ignored to claim that superiority? Part of the reason we are on page 16 is because there has been so much "um actually no, the game rules don't work that way" and similar being called on the folks claiming caster superiority. "I need components for my spells on this list"> "ok how about we give the fighter x to make it even" or something would probably have been an easy negotiation had it not been ignored like the pile of other things ignored up till then.

Well first of all, they did - many posts are saying the conditions are unsatisfactory/unrealistic.

But In my case, as I stated upthread, because these kind of "yes they are" "no they're not" back and forths are futile. There needs to be actual play showings and experiments.
 

Partly true. Though I strongly feel that WotC made a colossal mistake by balancing things around utterly insane amount of encounters per day. Most people simply do not play like that.

But they gave you options if you dont play like that. Gritty realism (that turns days into weeks or even months). It's right there in the rules.

You can also use milestone resting, or one of a dozen other techniques.
 

Note: the PCs were 17th level as per the initial mention. Also, as the wizard was limited to components without a cost, the Fighter did not have a magic bow either.

That actually hurts the Martial as his capstone is better.

The Fighter can get a magic bow simply by being an Arcane Archer. As a bonus, if he misses he can redirect the shot to the other Planetar, and he gets a bonus 8d6 psychic damage to add to his 6 Sharpshooter shots as well.
 


Mort

Legend
Supporter
Yes. Warlock is memed as the simple caster. There just should an inverse. Complex fighter and rogue.
Isn't the Battlemaster the "complex" fighter?

If you're talking complex like the 4e fighter - well I suspect WoTC is way too gun-shy to go with that for a good long time!
 


Asisreo

Patron Badass
Well first of all, they did - many posts are saying the conditions are unsatisfactory/unrealistic.

But In my case, as I stated upthread, because these kind of "yes they are" "no they're not" back and forths are futile. There needs to be actual play showings and experiments.
Would it be better if we provided a play-by-post? I'm not entirely comfortable with this idea merely because its harder to be fully transparent about the dice rolls without any way to openly roll.

I don't want to have a monster just so happen to succeed or fail a save that they had a 5% chance to succeed, and then not actually have impartial proof that it actually happened.

I would like to just show probabilities so that everyone can uniformly agree on the math.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Both characters can handle the encounter.
The question isnt whether they can handle it; the question is how many of those encounters, punctuated by short rests, can they handle in between long rests.
See to me this argument is faulty to begin with though. We are assuming the standard campaign exists as an endless series of 6-8 encounter days...back to back, with no downtime in between.

i have never played or seen a game like that outside of a canned module, there are breaks, there is downtime...there is more realistic exploration than encounter encounter encounter. Sometimes you just have 1 thing a day...often times you have nothing.

in those scenarios, the limited resources matter little. It’s “can you do the thing or not”. And casters can.
 

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