D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Stalker0]

I guess at this point.... is there really any more to say on this topic? I mean both camps have stated their cases.

Casters are Stronger

• Can do things Martials simply cannot do (aka "cinematically cooler")
• Has much stronger downtime options
• Martials are often helpless before magical powers that only casters can deal with, aka "reliant on casters"

Martials are Stronger (or at least equal)

• Superior in combat
• Caster's "superior utility" is mostly theoretical. In practice, with proper adjudication of prepared spells and encounters per day, casters are fairly limited.
• Unlimited Resources compared to caster resource limitations, which require them to fall back onto suboptimal cantrips compared to martial at-will attacks and techniques.

We have had 30 pages of people basically all stated the same general things in 400 different ways. Is there really anymore to say? I guess the question is....did anyone switch sides after hearing the debates?

 

[Minigiant]

If you wanted to, you absolutely could add every one of these to the game under existing rules. They’re called boons.

My criticism of your list is that it predominantly is just adding to damage. Damage is something a fighter already excels at so really you’re just making them more powerful in combat. Which as I understand is nothing to do with the martial/caster criticism. If your argument is that the combat superstars need even more damage then you’ve lost me.

If your fighter wants to train with that dragon slaying knight you simply grant them a boon. Wing-joint attack: You have advantage on your first ranged attack roll against a flying dragon in combat. When you attack a flying dragon and hit, doing at least 10 damage the dragon’s flying speed becomes 0 for 1 minute. The dragon will fall straight down and take 5d6 damage if it hits solid ground from the controlled fall. The dragon will be very angry.

1) It's not the fighter class. It's a while new class.

2) It's D&D. Most lists of anything will be full of damage.

3) A few of my ideas for the lost would be special Dash and Dodge actions. Dash + Spider Cimb. Dash + Ignore Difficult Terrain. Dash + Water Walk (requires magic shoes), Dash Underwater. Dodge + Dash. Dodge and Riposte, Dodge + Disengage, Double Dodge, Dash+ Hide (requires Smokebomb or Flashbomb), Helicopter Spin or Stab Wall to lower fall damage, Pocket Sand. Low Blow + Dash.

 

[Flamestrike]

3) A few of my ideas for the lost would be special Dash and Dodge actions. Dash + Spider Cimb. Dash + Ignore Difficult Terrain. Dash + Water Walk (requires magic shoes), Dash Underwater. Dodge + Dash. Dodge and Riposte, Dodge + Disengage, Double Dodge, Dash+ Hide (requires Smokebomb or Flashbomb), Helicopter Spin or Stab Wall to lower fall damage, Pocket Sand. Low Blow + Dash.

Fighters can do most of that stuff already, with Action surge, and via feats.

 

[Minigiant]

Fighters can do most of that stuff already, with Action surge, and via feats.

The Fighter can do it once per short or long rest.

The Weaponmaster/Warblade can do them x times per short or long rest. X is Level + Con mod.

 

[Flamestrike]

The Fighter can do it once per short or long rest.

The Weaponmaster/Warblade can do them x times per short or long rest. X is Level + Con mod.

Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster gives you want you want doesnt it?

I dont know why they're left out of this equation really. Between expertise, reliable talent, the new Battlemaster maneuvers that aid skill checks, and all the combat goodness of battlemaster + swashbuckler (ripose manouver for the win) your're likely dominating the social and combat pillars, and no slouch in the exploration pillar either.

 

[Minigiant]

Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster gives you want you want doesnt it?

I dont know why they're left out of this equation really. Between expertise, reliable talent, the new Battlemaster maneuvers that aid skill checks, and all the combat goodness of battlemaster + swashbuckler (ripose manouver for the win) your're likely dominating the social and combat pillars, and no slouch in the exploration pillar either.

Battle master is too weak in complexity due to Fighter baggage.

Think Monk.

• Minus Martial Arts
• Minus Extra Attack
• Minus Kung Fu Stuff
• Plus all Armor
• Pluss all weapon
• Plus a whole list of Techniques
• Plus You get to choose the techniques.

Basically Battle master only add a die and a condition with its points. 1d8 + Trip. 1d8 + Shove.

I want to spend a Stamina point an get a whole action or 2 or 3. Attack, trip, attack again for +2d6 damage, then disengage.

 

[Flamestrike]

Battle master is too weak in complexity due to Fighter baggage.

No its not. You have an action surge, second wind, and several sup dice to ration out over every 2 or so encounters.

Adding in a few levels of Rogue also gives you a bonus action [dash/ disengage/ hide] every round to play with, plus trying to position yourself for sneak attack.

 

[Minigiant]

No its not. You have an action surge, second wind, and several sup dice to ration out over every 2 or so encounters.

Adding in a few levels of Rogue also gives you a bonus action [dash/ disengage/ hide] every round to play with, plus trying to position yourself for sneak attack.

Again

1. You only get one Action Surge until high levels
2. You can only perform actions you can already perform.
3. Action Surge does not grant you new action options.

A fighter can Dash then Action surge Dash or Attack then Action Surge Attack.

A Warblade can Dash, Dash, Dash, Dash and Attack by spending 1 Stamina. But he or she must take "Supreme Charge" as one of his 10 Techniques and must be 10th level or higher. The Warblade cannot Attack then Attack unless they take "Double Onslaught".

 

[Flamestrike]

Again

1. You only get one Action Surge until high levels
2. You can only perform actions you can already perform.
3. Action Surge does not grant you new action options.

A fighter can Dash then Action surge Dash or Attack then Action Surge Attack.

Add in 2 levels of Rogue.

The Fighter can Move, Dash, Dash and Attack once every short rest, or Move, Dash/ Disengage and Attack every round if he wants to. He can also spend a Sup dice before moving to add +Die to his movement as he goes, and pick up the Mobility feat if he wants even more mobility.

A Warblade can Dash, Dash, Dash, Dash and Attack by spending 1 Stamina.

What/s the point though? How many corner cases is that even useful, that the above Fighter/ Rogue cant also do?

 

[Minigiant]

Add in 2 levels of Rogue.

The Fighter can Move, Dash, Dash and Attack once every short rest, or Move, Dash/ Disengage and Attack every round if he wants to. He can also spend a Sup dice before moving to add +Die to his movement as he goes, and pick up the Mobility feat if he wants even more mobility.

Nope.

The Warblade can do FOUR Dashes and a Attack and still have their move. That's 5 actions in one turn. FIVE.

What/s the point though? How many corner cases is that even useful, that the above Fighter/ Rogue cant also do

Climb Sheer Surfaces. Walk steep inclines at no penalty. Walk difficult terrain with no penalty. Climb speed. Swim speed. Swing from vines and ropes perfectly. Exploit weaknesses. Identify Weaknesses. Indentify HP. Call Shots. Get bonus to dance. Get bonus to warfare. Ignore poisons for a time. Ignore illness or age for a time. Gain or grant THP. Ready multiple actions each with different triggers. Do special actions with magic weapons. Gain resistance or immunity with magic armors and shield.

The point is to have all the planning, resource management, and mental stat roleplay... with a warrior instead of a spellcaster.