D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[overgeeked]

But the argument itself sounds kinda niche to me.

If you could understand, it isn't people that want to play martials that the problem occurs, its the people that

• Want to play martials
• Want versatility
• Want to play into a high-fantasy character but
• Doesn't want to cast spells.

I just feel like this is still a niche audience that may exist heavily in a more grognard community, but isn't so heavily needed that it is even a significant minority of the fanbase.

That's how I feel, but am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong.

I want to play martials. I also don't want to be so utterly overshadowed by casters that my character is all but useless after around 10th level. That's not a problem with grognards, that's a problem with game design.

 

[TwoSix]

Discussion, yes. But no amount of online discussion will change my DM who says "no" into a DM who says "yes". I'm not saying we don't discuss DM fiat, I'm saying DM fiat isn't a good solution to game balance. Every DM is different, so every DM rules differently (within a given set of variables, outcomes, etc). So the solution to unbalanced game mechanics really can't be DM fiat. DMs are as likely to make the game even more unbalanced as they are to make the game more balanced.

I would push back here and say the issue isn't purely one of balance, it's also an issue of gameplay. It's easy to assume it's a balance issue because casters have been stronger than martials for most of D&D's run, but it's not hard to see how balance can be achieved without changing the system of spells as "granted authority" and martial tricks as "ask the DM". Look how much more balanced 5e is than 3.5 to see how that can be accomplished. (Not that 5e is perfectly balanced, but it's much better than 3.5!)

The larger issue, to me, is that certain kinds of gameplay (having a large menu of options to choose from that can change regularly) is restricted to certain tropes (casters), which limits player choice as to what kind of gameplay they like. It certainly impacts me, personally, the only times I've played "martial types" is when they've had a larger amount of options to use (3.5 swordsage, 4e fighter and warlord).

 

[Undrave]

DM fiat is the game, though.

And to be honest, I don't see how Online Discussions can truly be productive if the entire game's arbiter is left out of the discussion entirely.

Sure, we can't agree on how a DM will behave, but the DM must exist and therefore must be considered.

If the problem is because of "Guy in the Gym-ism," would it not be productive to remind the community of how to help within individual cases rather than just not speak out?

DM fiat can also affect all character equally. DM fiat is dependant on people-to-people interaction, and not from the interplay of the rules themselves.

If the Fighter can get a Boon then so does the Wizard, so it doesn't matter.

DM Fiat is a wash. It's always best to discuss thing as if the DM was stingy as a baseline than assume a genius generous DM willing to put in the work to balance their players. Heck, the structure or story of the game itself might skew in favour of mundane characters (like one where Magic is outlawed, for exemple), doesn't meant the problems went away, it just means the circumstances made them not a problem.

 

[Undrave]

The larger issue, to me, is that certain kinds of gameplay (having a large menu of options to choose from that can change regularly) is restricted to certain tropes (casters), which limits player choice as to what kind of gameplay they like. It certainly impacts me, personally, the only times I've played "martial types" is when they've had a larger amount of options to use (3.5 swordsage, 4e fighter and warlord).

The inverse is also true! If you want to play a Caster you absolutely need to deal with spell slots, maybe spell prep, and Concentration, and action types... I played a Cleric and a Bard and a Druid and I'm honestly tired of full casters mechanics. Next time I want to be magical I'll play a Warlock and Pew Pew my way to victory with Eldritch beat.

Archetypes shouldn't be so wedded to mechanics.

Not all Martial characters need to be Champions, not all Caster character need to be Illusionists.

 

[ECMO3]

I couldn't agree more and I think Arcane Trickster is the most versatile class in the game.

 

[ECMO3]

The inverse is also true! If you want to play a Caster you absolutely need to deal with spell slots, maybe spell prep, and Concentration, and action types... I played a Cleric and a Bard and a Druid and I'm honestly tired of full casters mechanics. Next time I want to be magical I'll play a Warlock and Pew Pew my way to victory with Eldritch beat.

You should try bladesinger.

 

[TwoSix]

The inverse is also true! If you want to play a Caster you absolutely need to deal with spell slots, maybe spell prep, and Concentration, and action types... I played a Cleric and a Bard and a Druid and I'm honestly tired of full casters mechanics. Next time I want to be magical I'll play a Warlock and Pew Pew my way to victory with Eldritch beat.

Archetypes shouldn't be so wedded to mechanics.

Not all Martial characters need to be Champions, not all Caster character need to be Illusionists.

One hundred percent agree. There should be simple casters (like a Warlock with no spell slots but some extra invocations) and complex warriors (look at the Level Up combat maneuvers for examples) to go along with what we have now.

 

[overgeeked]

The inverse is also true! If you want to play a Caster you absolutely need to deal with spell slots, maybe spell prep, and Concentration, and action types... I played a Cleric and a Bard and a Druid and I'm honestly tired of full casters mechanics. Next time I want to be magical I'll play a Warlock and Pew Pew my way to victory with Eldritch beat.

Archetypes shouldn't be so wedded to mechanics.

Not all Martial characters need to be Champions, not all Caster character need to be Illusionists.

And not all players who want to play a mechanically straightforward character want to play weak characters. That link needs to die in fire. Playing a simple martial character should not mean playing a mechanically weak character. Though it is interesting that the game has basically always rewarded system mastery with greater direct power in game. Maybe that should stop, too.

 

[MichaelSomething]

All you need to do in order to balance Martials versus Casters is to have long adventuring days so that Casters have to manage their resources!

 

[overgeeked]

All you need to do in order to balance Martials versus Casters is to have long adventuring days so that Casters have to manage their resources!

So turn the game into a boring slugfest of endless combat? No thanks.