D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

Not everyone finds joy in making decisions.

Then playing a game with tactical combat probably isn't for them.

Shouldn't there be a complex decision tree martial for people that want it? There isn't one. And if there were, given how everything else in 5e tends to work, most of those abilities would have to be essentially magic to compete with the other high-complexity classes.

Anyway, if your default position is "I don't like decisions" you'll probably never grok why people like wizards and find them strong.

 

[Stalker0]

Athletics becomes a bit of a joke unless one builds for grappling.

I think people really underestimate how powerful grappling is in 5e. It only takes 1 attack, no OA no crazy weird mechanics. Its an opposed athletics, which a trained fighter with good strength will be better out than the vast majority of monsters they face. Even large creatures rarely have athletics proficiency.

Now they can't move, and now you can just move them around where you want them to go, drop them off a cliff, once they are grappled, you can just do that. Or prone them....they can't move so they can't get up from prone....wail on them all day.

My party recently "discovered" the power. Heck I have characters with only 14 strength doing it, because it can be great and its cost is low.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Such as? Not being flippant, serious question.

A valid question, and one that I'll admit can be tricky to answer. Off the top of my head I'd say spells enhancing physical combat seem fairly obvious to start, but even that eventually leads to things like Paladin smite spells, which fit for that character. Still, something like Tenser's Transformation seems like maybe not a great idea?

Jump and Spider climb also just do better than equivalent martial abilities. In earlier editions Invisibility was like becoming a master at sneaking, although by rules in 5e it doesn't actually do that anymore. And I'm not sure I would want to get rid of all these abilities, as they are very iconic, but they do make having an equivalent skill feel less awesome.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Don't mean to harp but would you mind providing a sequence of 6 spells that you believe would be good for the description of the creatures I proposed?

I think that even using specific monsters in the experiment is inherently “white-roomy”. Inherent in my post is using context clues to identify monsters, something that is lacking in a white room analysis.

What is the context for my wizard fighting them? This might provide context for resistances and immunities.

Where are we? If we are in say, Mt Celestia, this gives me an idea of the creatures and their likely abilities.

Was I aware that I might come across this type of monster? I might have performed research as to the likely defences of what I might face.

As a DM, do you allow knowledge checks for information about monsters? As a wizard, I’m likely trained in the appropriate knowledge skills.

How far away are they? This might impact my choices.

What is my goal? I might be able to trivially “win” the encounter by teleporting away or by evading the monsters.

Have I fought these monsters before or monsters of the same type? This might provide information about their abilities, immunities and tactics. As a level 17 spellcaster, I presume I have fought a large portion of the 11+ creatures in the monster manual.

 

[ph0rk]

Or prone them

In a party with only one other melee-preferred character, this is actually a benefit to the proned, unless you have a large field of adversaries, in which case grappling one might be a waste of your time. It can be really good, but it depends entirely on the encounter and party.

Further, that's one trick. Grappling and shoving and positioning are essentially it. It isn't like you get a new thing you can do that replaces grappling to do some completely other thing in Tier 3.

 

[auburn2]

It would be cool if the spells could be "re-skinned" as special abilities.

I've often wondered at preparing a curated spell list that could reasonably be under the umbrella of heroic abilities.

sounds like 4e .... which sucked

 

[tetrasodium]

You are focusing on the wrong point.

The joy is making the decisions at that moment; and that your short list of options may be different than the one you had yesterday.

You are deliberately not making it a batman encounter, because one of those involves a day of planning, and those aren't solo - the planning involves picking spells around the capabilities of the party.

A fighter just casts sword.

I should add that single target damage is already well within the fighter's wheelhouse, too. That should be clear, but perhaps it is not.

you nope'd right off when @Flamestrike gave you the opportunity to show the real strength of the 5e batman wizard the last time you had a chance in the long rest vrs short rest thread where you were making these kinds of claims & again avoided it when the little adventure he made was forked into it's own thread. Coincidentally the wizard defender who did participate in the prewritten adventure is not doing so well in it using a spell list chosen before seeing the already written adventure.

It seems like your complaint here might be better represented by "I would prefer a whiteroom with full disclosure where I could prepare spells at a metagame level to trivialize it rather than needing to balance or even consider the needs of adventuring in a party where the players will not generally know everything they encounter".

 

[Asisreo]

Then playing a game with tactical combat probably isn't for them.

I enjoy tactical combat. I play JRPG's almost exclusively. But there's a huge difference in that I have time to take 10-30 minutes to decide my next move on a JRPG, or if I make a mistake I don't cost someone else's character.

But even still, I think the fact that these players actually do not have to just not play 5e is the entire strength of Martials.

Shouldn't there be a complex decision tree martial for people that want it? There isn't one. And if there were, given how everything else in 5e tends to work, most of those abilities would have to be essentially magic to compete with the other high-complexity classes.

There is, and its the EK. And it does use spells but I still don't see a mechanical reason why this is bad. I mean, that just means that a player that never touched EK's can still hop in without having to learn a completely separate subsystem if they've been introduced to magic and vice-verse.

Adding more subsystems are adding more headaches to a player's end and can ultimately turn them away.

Anyway, if your default position is "I don't like decisions" you'll probably never grok why people like wizards and find them strong.

I don't think many of my friends like game-deciding decisions because its too much pressure. When the heat is on them and only them, they say they aren't enjoying it. I'm also an introvert, so stepping up and saying "This will fix it." Only for the creature to heartily resist is almost a nightmare.

 

[ph0rk]

gave you the opportunity

I gave them the opportunity to tell me which half of that short spell list was 86'd. They didn't take it.

And this after they had already cherrypicked the encounter entirely on their terms.

It seems like your complaint here might be better represented by "I would prefer a whiteroom with full disclosure where I could prepare spells at a metagame level to trivialize it rather than needing to balance or even consider the needs of adventuring in a party where the players will not generally know everything they encounter".

No, and if you had actually read the post you quoted you'd get the point.

Playing a class like a wizard does not mean you have the absolutely best set of choices each and every time. In fact, sometimes you have the worst possible spell list for that encounter. This is the point.

Playing a fighter is like American Gladiator. Playing a Wizard is like Iron Chef.

 

[Stalker0]

Coincidentally the wizard defender who did participate in the prewritten adventure is not doing so well in it using a spell list chosen before seeing the already written adventure.

With respect, we have had a couple of encounters so far. Lets not start using that as the posterboy for any debates until we actually finish the adventure and see what happens.