MCDM officially announces their RPG

as is the idea that he doesn't understand the purpose of the dice system he's using
It's not that he doesn't understand the purpose, that's a misrepresentation. It's that he doesn't understand the impact or issues this causes, and he and others rapidly got into just denial-lock rather than actually addressing issues or talking about the mitigations they wanted to use.

Also, he may be a 30-year-veteran, but based on everything he's said, he's not actually played that many different RPGs, and I don't think he's nearly as circumspect as some people wish he was.
 

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Like people having whole elaborate feelings on something they didn't even play reeks of sus to me. Its just pure reaction, not anything meaningful
This always has been, and always will be a profoundly ignorant viewpoint, ironic as that might seem. It's incredibly insulting and dismissive towards people who, in many cases, have a great deal of experience, and do, in fact, understand the criticisms they're making. I'd go as far as to say it's an ill-considered and reactionary viewpoint itself, which ironic, but there you go.

I've seen this play out before, as I said, with the specific WoW example. People acting like you are and mindlessly dismissing criticism on those grounds are very often digging a deep hole, which they're going to be a bit red-faced to find themselves in later.

And it's sad, because if you honestly look at mitigations and listen to criticism, even if you want to stick with an idea, you can do a better job - but MCDM have chosen the Blizzard path here.
 

Haplo781

Legend
In the blue corner: Matt Colville, creator of multiple multi-million dollar Kickstarter projects.

In the red corner: a bunch of anonymous internet posters who have created zero notable projects.

DING DING
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
Yeah the fact that, as a designer, he only just got around to trying out the Star Wars FFG dice is not a great sign.
That’s an incredibly bad assumption on your part. He’s been using versions of that system and those dice since WFRP3E. He was a vocal early adopter and has talked about them for years.
 

FallenRX

Adventurer
This always has been, and always will be a profoundly ignorant viewpoint, ironic as that might seem. It's incredibly insulting and dismissive towards people who, in many cases, have a great deal of experience, and do, in fact, understand the criticisms they're making. I'd go as far as to say it's an ill-considered and reactionary viewpoint itself, which ironic, but there you go.

I've seen this play out before, as I said, with the specific WoW example. People acting like you are and mindlessly dismissing criticism on those grounds are very often digging a deep hole, which they're going to be a bit red-faced to find themselves in later.

And it's sad, because if you honestly look at mitigations and listen to criticism, even if you want to stick with an idea, you can do a better job - but MCDM have chosen the Blizzard path here.
I agree, but the difference here.

They are criticizing something that doesn't even literally exist yet because it is a bit different, like, they havent actually played with it, see how it runs, nor even understand it, it might not even be in the game.

WoW is one thing because its a done game, people play, beta test, and inform people of the issues of, This game is not wow, its not even a game yet, the very idea of it, without even trying it, they just don't like. Based on....very little.

So yea, Im not a fan of funky dice, but id like to actually try it first before actively trying to invoke endless discussion on "I hate X" before its even out, that is incredibly vapid and nothing, like that discussion they have ever right to cool off about because its not feedback, its not anything constructive, it cant be, because they havent actually even played or done anything with the game yet, its just straight up whining that "This game is different from X game I like, so i don't like it" This is the emptiest form of criticism and is truly worth no merit.
 
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FallenRX

Adventurer
"Stop coming into every thread about DnD, complaining about WotC, and then pitching A5E. You've made it your entire personality."
"Stop making threads about the caster martial divide, everything is fine, you've made it your entire personality."

Like, you can agree with their position that they don't want a design element up for discussion in their 8 dollar a month Discord channel about game design. But agreeing with someone making an insult doesn't make it NOT an insult. Can you imagine Jeremy Crawford popping up on Twitter or something and making the second statement I put above? I imagine people would be quite upset being on the receiving end of that. I imagine even the first statement, directed at someone wanting to support an EnWorld product, would have a very high chance of getting red texted here.
The difference is.
That is about games that actually exist, people are playing with, and people are giving feedback on.
This is about a game, in its designing phase, not even a real game, that no one has tried, the mechanic in question might not even make it to the final game(which was said on stream recently). most of the mechanics ,most of the classes they are designing with, arent even the real classes, just mockups basically. placeholders, its just prototypes at best, its not even a game.

One is actual feedback that comes from playtesting, experiences, and a mostly done game, the other is just pure reaction based on very little, about a game that doesnt even exist yet, that no one has played?

You see how actually meaningless that reaction is in comparison?
 

SakanaSensei

Adventurer
The difference is.
That is about games that actually exist, people are playing with, and people are giving feedback on.
This is about a game, in its designing phase, not even a real game, that no one has tried, the mechanic in question might not even make it to the final game(which was said on stream recently). most of the mechanics ,most of the classes they are designing with, arent even the real classes, just mockups basically. placeholders, its just prototypes at best, its not even a game.

One is actual feedback that comes from playtesting, experiences, and a mostly done game, the other is just pure reaction based on very little, about a game that doesnt even exist yet, that no one has played?

You see how actually meaningless that reaction is in comparison?
If I may, I believe you are misunderstanding my concern, or I did a bad job of properly expressing myself.

My issue isn't with the mechanic. I was cautiously optimistic and at the very least intellectually curious about how they planned on using their dice in a tactical game. I thought it was really nice to see people talk about the pros and cons of messing with dice math and the game feel associated with the mechanic. Some of those pros and cons, talked about quite a while ago now, have even started cropping up in their playtests it seems! I remember early discussion talking about how "your stat equals how many dice you roll" possibly leading to stats leading to too strong of a swing, and lo and behold that seems to have cropped up in the playtests.

My issue was entirely with Matt coming into the Discord, insulting some of his fans (I don't think many people are dropping 8 dollars a month out of spite, after all), and then doubling down on the insult in a Patreon post.
 

I agree, but the difference here.

They are criticizing something that doesn't even literally exist yet because it is a bit different, like, they havent actually played with it, see how it runs, nor even understand it, it might not even be in the game.
That's not really different unless we're talking about something OTHER than the dice. Which maybe you were? But I didn't get it if so.

The dice stuff is well-established and well-known, and in fact what MCDM are currently suggesting (as I understand it) would be BY FAR the most extreme use of "funky dice" in RPG, possibly in any wargame or boardgame, even, which wasn't specifically a game about dice (i.e. dice-pool builder or the like).

This isn't magic.

We know what the problems with funky dice are. And again, nothing MCDM has proposed will mitigate the issues, and they're proposing to do something far more extreme than previous scenarios.
So yea, Im not a fan of funky dice, but id like to actually try it first before actively trying to invoke endless discussion on "I hate X" before its even out, that is incredibly vapid and nothing, like that discussion they have ever right to cool off about because its not feedback, its not anything constructive, it cant be, because they havent actually even played or done anything with the game yet, its just straight up whining that "This game is different from X game I like, so i don't like it" This is the emptiest form of criticism and is truly worth no merit.
No.

This is a purely hypocritical position you're holding.

You yourself are mindlessly disregarding stuff simply because you haven't play the game yet. That is exactly what you're complaining about.

There may be some worthless criticism, there always is with any product. But the issues with funky dice are known factors. And again, MCDM are not, to my knowledge, proposing any mitigations at all against the four factors I listed. And that's messed-up, because there are mitigations for some of them. But again, MCDM haven't proposed them, and have shut down discussion on the subject entirely.
 

In the blue corner: Matt Colville, creator of multiple multi-million dollar Kickstarter projects.

In the red corner: a bunch of anonymous internet posters who have created zero notable projects.

DING DING
This is absolutely awful and cringe-worthy stuff, dude. It's not helpful to the discussion, it's not intelligent, it doesn't add anything at all, it only creates a more hostile atmosphere. Why even post it?
 

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