MCDM officially announces their RPG

[Aldarc]

The irony of people thinking 30-year RPG industry veteran Matt Coleville just wants to make a D&D clone is absolutely staggering, as is the idea that he doesn't understand the purpose of the dice system he's using.

Like with many things, this is less ironic than you may think when you take into consideration that (1) I never said that he just wants to make a D&D clone, and (2) I never said or implied that he never understood the purpose of the dice.

In the blue corner: Matt Colville, creator of multiple multi-million dollar Kickstarter projects.

In the red corner: a bunch of anonymous internet posters who have created zero notable projects.

DING DING

FYI, there are better ways to push back against the criticism than being rude towards your fellow posters.

I agree, but the difference here.

They are criticizing something that doesn't even literally exist yet because it is a bit different, like, they havent actually played with it, see how it runs, nor even understand it, it might not even be in the game.

WoW is one thing because its a done game, people play, beta test, and inform people of the issues of, This game is not wow, its not even a game yet, the very idea of it, without even trying it, they just don't like. Based on....very little.

I would point out here, however, that there are a fair number of computer games out there where prospective players recognized in advance red flags and problems for said games in the pre-beta development cycle. There are many times, IME, where these players heard apologetics say, "Wait. It's not even beta yet," only to discover that those pre-flagged problems, issues, and bad systems were still in place in the beta and subsequently at launch. Then those games were plagued by those identified problems.

That said, I understand that we can't playtest it yet. I understand that it's not in its final form. I understand that it's not a released game yet. But that won't stop prospective players or interested parties from raising potential concerns based upon what they do see. Because here is another difference between games like WoW and TTRPGs: WoW, FFXIV, and even games with disastrous trainwreck launches like Diablo 3: they can use live updates to correct the problems of their games. However, most tabletop games don't enjoy that same privilege.

That’s an incredibly bad assumption on your part. He’s been using versions of that system and those dice since WFRP3E. He was a vocal early adopter and has talked about them for years.

I feel like I never hear anyone talk about this edition of WFRP.

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, this is what is extremely off-putting to me.

They initially acknowledged that there were a bunch of valid concerns re: funky dice, even listed some. Then they offered some solutions - they were all pretty silly off-the-cuff stuff that didn't address the core issues with funky dice, just workarounds that might make sense for playtesting, but not for long-term play. The core issues, as I see it, are:

1) They're a significant extra cost - and are usually wildly overcharged for, relatively to the actual quality of the dice being provided.

I'm mainly familiar with Star Wars RPG dice, so my responses will be based on them.

Yes, they're an extra cost. But the cost of Star Wars/Genesys dice are not that more expensive than your basic opaque Chessex dice on a die-for-die basis. Star Wars RPG dice have an MSRP of $15 for 14 dice. A basic 7-die polyhedral set costs about $5 (I think that cost was higher last time I did this comparison, making them basically equal). Still, considering the far smaller production batches I don't think that price is unfair per se.

The problem of course is that a basic 7-die poly set can be used with hundreds of different RPGs. Star Wars/Genesys dice can be used with two to eight, depending on how you count (low: Star Wars and Genesys; high: counting each Star Wars variant and each world book for Genesys as its own game)

4) They cause most players to completely lose the ability to estimate odds unless they're d6s - particularly as they rarely actually learn how many of each symbol are on each die - and god help us if you have same-size dice with different symbols.

This, to me, is the opposite of a problem. As someone once said,

To me, it is enough to know that blue, green, and yellow dice are good (and increasingly good in that order) and that black, purple, and red dice are bad (and increasingly bad in that order). I have no interest in knowing how much better a GYY combination is than a GGY, only that it's better.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, they're an extra cost. But the cost of Star Wars/Genesys dice are not that more expensive than your basic opaque Chessex dice on a die-for-die basis. Star Wars RPG dice have an MSRP of $15 for 14 dice. A basic 7-die polyhedral set costs about $5 (I think that cost was higher last time I did this comparison, making them basically equal). Still, considering the far smaller production batches I don't think that price is unfair per se.

Those specific dice are absolute junk, to be clear.

Chessex dice of a similar cost are insanely better quality. To the point where this has been discussed at some length by FFG Star Wars players - as one player put it - the best way to strengthen your character in FFG is just to buy a couple of sets, roll the dice a bunch and track how they're rolling, and only use the dice that roll well, because they're so poorly made that you will have dice that roll drastically better than others.

So what we have here is dice being sold more for considerably more than normal dice, and, as I said, being drastically lower quality than the normal dice.

Both of those are fixable problems - but only if MCDM fixes them - and to fix them, it'd probably have to acknowledge and discuss the issue, which it seems they're no longer willing to do.

This, to me, is the opposite of a problem. As someone once said,

To me, it is enough to know that blue, green, and yellow dice are good (and increasingly good in that order) and that black, purple, and red dice are bad (and increasingly bad in that order). I have no interest in knowing how much better a GYY combination is than a GGY, only that it's better.

I accept your perspective as valid.

HOWEVER, Matt himself has been very clear that he thinks people understanding the odds, and making decisions based on the odds, is an important part of what makes his "funky dice" system cool and tactical and so on.

So the reality that most players aren't game designers or into doing math on their dice, and absolutely will not understand the odds of getting any given symbol, unless something like an app explains it to them. So by Matt's own standards, this is absolutely a problem.

 

[darjr]

Yeah, this is what is extremely off-putting to me.

They initially acknowledged that there were a bunch of valid concerns re: funky dice, even listed some. Then they offered some solutions - they were all pretty silly off-the-cuff stuff that didn't address the core issues with funky dice, just workarounds that might make sense for playtesting, but not for long-term play. The core issues, as I see it, are:

1) They're a significant extra cost - and are usually wildly overcharged for, relatively to the actual quality of the dice being provided.

2) They're usually extremely low-quality, like absolute bottom-of-the-barrel quality. I can't, off-hand, think of any exceptions except for when the "funky dice" have been made of wood. All the plastic ones I've ever seen, whether for TTRPGs or wargames or boardgames have been trash-tier if they're made of plastic. Over the years, pretty much everyone in my main group(s) has got nicer and nicer dice, and better-balanced ones too. That's all out the window with funky dice.

3) They require extra coordination to ensure everyone has them, and potentially an entire extra dicebox/dicebag to drag around/lose/forget. Maybe this isn't an issue for everyone, but it is for me - I've been using the same dicebox for 20+ years, and I don't want to ditch 1/5th the dice (or more - and it sounds like it would be more, based on how heavy they want to go with different die types!) just to make sure I can potentially give 4 players and me all their funky dice. And players will have difficulty finding/buying them themselves, in my experience. God and I'd have to separate them somehow too so they didn't get mixed in.

4) They cause most players to completely lose the ability to estimate odds unless they're d6s - particularly as they rarely actually learn how many of each symbol are on each die - and god help us if you have same-size dice with different symbols.

And that makes the entire "tactical" or "decision-making" aspect of rolling funky dice go totally out the window!

Only a very specific kind of math-absorbent player retains the ability to understand the odds and make decisions relating to the dice on that basis - which is like, at best, 1 in 3 players (and I think that's being extremely generous - being realistic I'd say it's more like 1 in 5). This is a big one that MCDM has never acknowledged AFAIK and clearly from the playtest, didn't even understand (you could see it was happening on their Patreon article about the playtest - and it was confusing everyone - but they didn't see why - I should probably have posted something but the responses were so sycophantic/fan-ish/hype-y that I felt like it wasn't worth it).

And yeah as you say, because there were serious concerns with this, and MCDM didn't have any real answers, this turned into one of those negative feedback loops, where someone who doesn't have good answers re: an issue with their project, just gets increasingly defensive about it as it keeps being brought up, and then finally directs their anger at the people raising it, and starts attacking them. Which is super-gross and cringe.

I've seen it for decades - the first time I really identified it was with World of Warcraft. The first PvP honor system was described in detail, and immediately, people pointed out pretty much all the faults it would have, all the problems it would have, with truly remarkable accuracy. It was actually quite impressive. People were even rather polite about it, because Blizzard presented it as "subject to change" and that they were seeking feedback. Only apparently they weren't ready for these specific critiques, because they didn't have any answers for them, they just started saying "It'll be fine!" and "Don't worry about it!" and "You haven't played it, shut up!" and then eventually "You're all morons who suck and I will prove you wrong!" (this from the main designer). The critics were 100% correct. Everything they predicted would go wrong, did go wrong, and 2 years later the system was completely overhauled and changed on a fundamental level.

The sad thing is I think the "funky dice" issue could be handled okay even if they're determined to stick with it, but they've chosen as path of denial and rudeness, so they probably won't. The two big fixes I could see would be:

A) Sell high-quality funky dice, and make sure you do so at the absolute cheapest price you can manage - a zero-profit price. Do not sell, even as an option, low-quality versions of the dice. You can have some fancy-looking ones you do make a profit on too, of course, but you need to sell stuff that works and as cheaply as you can.

B) Provide a well-designed dice-rolling app for the game, with no ads, no bollocks, which preferably shows the percentage odds of each face-type for each die. I think they are planning a die-rolling app (though that may have just been something they said and then later forgot), but I am unconvinced it'll be focused correctly, and it only helps rather than solving the problem. Also, I know of a specific example with a game that never got released (but still might one day) that a friend-of-a-friend was working on, where showing the percentages basically created a "Oz curtain pull" situation about how the game worked, which was part of why it never got released. So I worry if they'd actually do that.

Matt has said something along the lines of the design for the dice ti be open, like the game. He said it in the context if folks “printing” dice but I think he meant molding.

I find printed dice ti be terrible.

I hope he also means for others to be able to make and sell them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Matt has said something along the lines of the design for the dice ti be open, like the game. He said it in the context if folks “printing” dice but I think he meant molding.

Yeah that's another one of these pie-in-the-sky "I live in a bubble full of basically wealthy American nerds" non-solutions Matt comes up with.

Making the design open solves nothing re: cost or quality. It just lowers the barriers to other people solving a problem Matt is intentionally creating, without having a solution or real mitigation. He fell in love with the idea before he considered the problems, and now he can't fact the problems, frankly.

Home 3D-printed dice are the worst dice you will find, essentially. Even cheap plastic crap which rolls badly is better quality. And even in the US, less than 1 in 100 people has access to a home 3D printer, last I heard. And those who do are disproportionately wealthier, so are those less impacted anyway.

An open design means we may get a company like Everything Dice making some dice for this - which is lovely, right, because they'll be high quality, balanced, and roll well. But if they're from Everything Dice, they'll cost $60 per 7-dice set, at a dead minimum - and that's assuming Everything Dice even do that, and don't mark them up, and use their cheapest possible materials. And from what we've seen of the game design - you don't need one of each dice - for most die sizes, you need multiple. Per player. Sure you can shuffle them round - we've all done that sooner or later, and we all also know how much time and confusion that adds ("Where's the other d4? I need to roll two!" followed by everyone lifting their papers and so on), and how it makes the game feel worse.

(Full disclosure: I have one set of Everything Dice - they cost me $70 before shipping and took 6 weeks to get here - they're absolutely gorgeous - but that is an unreasonable cost for me for anything but a one-off personal luxury, and I'm not poor.)

If he actually cared about this issue, he himself would be directing MCDM to start talking to people like Chessex (yes even at this stage) about what the logistics would be in getting in quality versions of these dice made and how cheaply it could be done, not pushing it off to the richest hobbyists.

 

[overgeeked]

I feel like I never hear anyone talk about this edition of WFRP.

It's like Matt has a thing for underdogs. D&D 4E and WFRP 3E. So of course he's going to smash them together and see what happens.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

That’s an incredibly bad assumption on your part. He’s been using versions of that system and those dice since WFRP3E. He was a vocal early adopter and has talked about them for years.

If that's true, then my bad. The way he started tweeting about the Star Wars FFG dice not too long ago was very wide-eyed, bushy-tailed and "look at what we have here guys!!" I guess that's just like, his style. I'm no Colville deep cuts head, though, so I'll take your word for it that he's a WFRP FFG dice stan, even if he didn't get around to SW for a while.

 

[overgeeked]

even if he didn't get around to SW for a while.

Again with the terrible assumption. He's not new to Star Wars. Your not noticing his mentions of something until recently has no bearing on when he got into the thing. Any chance you'll stop pointlessly trying to undercut the guy? Don't like the game he's creating all you want, but maybe stop making up things about him.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Again with the terrible assumption. He's not new to Star Wars. Your not noticing his mentions of something until recently has no bearing on when he got into the thing. Any chance you'll stop pointlessly trying to undercut the guy? Don't like the game he's creating all you want, but maybe stop making up things about him.

Oh man...you could have just let it go. Didn't have to be this way, but now it is:


That's from Dec 2022. Please, tell me more about how he's been playing Star Wars FFG, or any other Star Wars rpg thing, for a real long time.

 

[DarkCrisis]

The one reason I haven't tried the new Star Wars RPG is due to funky dice. It's just another cost of entry. Oh and you need 3 books to get all the classes…. So dumb.

I own more than enough dice and I own no RPG that requires "funky dice". Its one more thing to keep track of, one more thing you need to play.

I just want a book. Minimalism. Thats it.

This rule does not apply to D&D where I need a lot of books and minis and maps etc etc etc