Melee, Ranged, Projectile and Thrown weapons...

[FlimFlam]

I have a slight confusion about how each of these weapon "descriptors" are categorized.

For example, the Dagger is located under "Martial Weapons - Melee" in the PHB but it also has a range increment as it can be thrown. So what would this weapon be considered? Melee and a thrown weapon? Melee weapon that can become a Ranged weapon when thrown?

How would the following feats affect it, if at all?

Point Blank Shot [General, Fighter]
You are skilled at making well-placed shots with ranged weapons at close range.

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

For the dagger, I would say you do NOT get these bonuses. It is not a ranged weapon, althought it may be thrown.

Precise Shot [General, Fighter]
You are skilled at timing and aiming ranged attacks.

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without suffering the standard -4 penalty. Cover bonuses if any still apply (such as cover from allies in between target and you).

Normal: Without Precise Shot, shooting or throwing weapons at an opponent has equal chances of being fired at either (modified by size).

This one I would also say no too in the case of a Dagger. You do THROW the dagger, but again it is not a ranged weapon. Correct?

Far Shot [General, Fighter]
You can get greater distance out of a ranged weapon.

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increments increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

In this case, I would say that the dagger DOES get the doubled range increment. It doesn't say that it only effects ranged weapons, just "projectile" and "thrown" (which the dagger can become).

Lastly, what about the Assassin's ability to Death Attack:

Death Attack
If the assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails her Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + Intelligence modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim's mind and body become enervated, rendering her completely helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

Now again, a Dagger would be considered a melee weapon as far as I read this. So you should (IMHO) be able to throw a dagger and get the Death Attack to trigger. Is this correct?

 

[The Souljourner]

I think you're over analyzing the situation. A weapon's "type" (either melee or ranged or whatever) is determined by how it's being used at the moment, not some stamp on the handle of the weapon.

You should *definitely* get to use all the ranged feats with thrown weapons. It doesn't matter what *table* it's on in the PHB. It's a weapon that's made to be thrown, therefor it's a ranged weapon when you throw it, therefor you can use the ranged feats with it.

Heck, technically you should get point blank shot if you throw a _halberd_ at someone within 30', though I think there's a rule somewhere about getting a -4 or so to hit when throwing things not designed to be thrown.

As for death attack - it definitely needs to be a melee attack. No way am I going to let some stupid rule lawyering extend the death attack out to thrown weapon range.

-The Souljourner

 

[Mistwell]

Funny, it is so clear when we talk about a dagger that it is two types of weapons at the same time (despite what the chart says in the PHB). However every time I say that the Sling is both a thrown and a projectile weapon, I get all these people quoting that same chart in the PHB like it is an infallible biblical text, and how a weapon can only be one or the other type.

 

[Antikinesis]

Funny, it is so clear when we talk about a dagger that it is two types of weapons at the same time (despite what the chart says in the PHB). However every time I say that the Sling is both a thrown and a projectile weapon, I get all these people quoting that same chart in the PHB like it is an infallible biblical text, and how a weapon can only be one or the other type.

Well... you'd look pretty silly, throwing your sling at your opponent.

The sling is used to accumulate energy that is transferred to the projectile of choice. Unless you're using an unusually heavy projectile, strength doesn't much figure into the use of a sling.

Kind of like a bow being used to accumulate energy that gets transferred to the arrow.

Yet another attempt at applying real-world logic to a fantasy game. YMMV.

-AK

 

[FlimFlam]

So are you saying that making a ranged attack with a melee weapon makes that melee weapon a "ranged weapon" for all intents and purposes? I guess it would work the same for making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, yes? Hitting someone in melee with your bow?

Does this mean I can cleave with a Shuriken if I attack with it as a melee weapon? Talk about looking silly...

 

[Antikinesis]

So are you saying that making a ranged attack with a melee weapon makes that melee weapon a "ranged weapon" for all intents and purposes? I guess it would work the same for making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, yes? Hitting someone in melee with your bow?

Does this mean I can cleave with a Shuriken if I attack with it as a melee weapon? Talk about looking silly...

Some weapons are designed so that they can be used as melee AND thrown weapons... the dagger being a good example.

Attempting to throw a weapon (or object used as a weapon) that wasn't designed to be thrown is going to incur the penalties for improvised weapons. So would using a ranged weapon in melee (e.g., stabbing with javelins, arrows, or shuriken).

For multipurpose weapons, the applicable rules and feats depend on which purpose is being used. If you throw a dagger, you get the ranged weapon feats. If you stab or slash with a dagger, you get melee weapon feats. If you attempt to club with a dagger, that's an improvised weapon that incurs a -4 attack penalty.

-AK

 

[RigaMortus]

I don't think the act of throwing a melee weapon would change it to a ranged weapon. The Core books clarify pretty well that there IS a difference between a "Ranged Attack" and a "Ranged Weapon".

 

[Crothian]

Does this mean I can cleave with a Shuriken if I attack with it as a melee weapon? Talk about looking silly...

You can stab with a shurken. So, if you drop a person doing that little damage, you can cleave. Looks no more silly then WWA + great Cleave with a spiked chain.

 

[Mistwell]

Well... you'd look pretty silly, throwing your sling at your opponent.

The sling is used to accumulate energy that is transferred to the projectile of choice. Unless you're using an unusually heavy projectile, strength doesn't much figure into the use of a sling.

Kind of like a bow being used to accumulate energy that gets transferred to the arrow.

Yet another attempt at applying real-world logic to a fantasy game. YMMV.

-AK

If real world is to be the criteria, then you should try using a sling. I've used a sling in real life. There is absolutely no question that strength plays a major role in how far, and how hard, the bullet travels. None. It is not much like a bow.

 

[Antikinesis]

Slings vs Bows

If real world is to be the criteria, then you should try using a sling. I've used a sling in real life. There is absolutely no question that strength plays a major role in how far, and how hard, the bullet travels. None. It is not much like a bow.

I was trying to point out the similarity in principle, not usage. The energy is being accumulated in the form of inertia with the sling, and tension with the bow. (Unlike thrown weapons.)

Besides... strength plays a major role in how far you can shoot an arrow, too. Not everyone can pull a 100-lb draw longbow.


-AK