Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

I know where you are coming from, but since things are usually very careful to specify if it is a) light or b) natural I am at a bit of a toss up for it really.

They do seem to fit the category of natural weapons in use however. I would still let power attack work at full efficiency though unless it is otherwise stated somewhere that they 'are' natural weapons rather than just functionally sortof like that numerically.

Would be nice to have what sort of attack they are and what size for effects. It is powerful enough that it should be clear ;)
 

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Here's a possible 20th-level half-orc fighter:

S: 34 (levels, racial, belt, manual)
D: 18 (gloves)
C: 24 (amulet, manual)
I: 6
W: 14 (tome +1)
Ch: 6

hp: 275

Relevant Feats: Greater Weapon Focus (Greatclub), Gr. Weap. Spec (Greatclub), Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Three Mountains, Imp. Toughness

Important Equipment: ioun stone [pale green], greatclub +5, boots of speed, belt of giant strength +6, manual of gainful exercise +5

Attack: 20 (BAB) + 12 (Str) + 1 (ioun) + 5 (club) + 2 (weap focus) + 1 (haste) - 2 (PA) = +39/+39/+34/+29/+24
Damage: 1d10 + 12 (Str) + 4 (spec) + 5 (club) + 4 (PA) = 30 x 5 attacks= 150 per round.
Dmg (w/ max power attack): 1d10 + 21 (various) +14 (PA) = 40 x 4 attacks = 160 per round.

Also, a DC 32 Fort save or be nauseated for the round. That high of a DC might be difficult for a Psi-warrior.
 

DC 32 Fort save... the fighter does not fight against the psywar, they both fight a hypothetical monster.

One more question: Encounter distance?

Having put some feats into archery and some money into an Oathbow might be interesting for the fighter.
 

Shadeus, that's an interesting fighter but you really need to do all the work and give him full equipment, full skills, and a full list of feats in order to take part in this competition which measures a variety of situational factors under things like "flexibility." It makes a very big difference if this fighter has a cape of the Montebank to escape from a collossal dragon's claws or whether grappled=defeated. Similarly, it makes a big difference whether the fighter can fly with some kind of boots, cloak, or potion or whether he is earthbound. All of those factors play a role here.

PS. I note that your fighter has only six relevant feats. A 15th level barbarian has that many feats. If you are posting here to demonstrate that Ftr 20 is a decent build, you will need to make full use of the 18-19 feats that a Ftr 20 gets. A build that a 20th level barbarian could duplicate (while spending a feat on Heavy Armor proficiency) won't do.

My own thought would be a human Ftr 20 making use of a heavy flail, Halberd, or Guisarme (in which case, swap a feat (probably Cleave or Quickdraw) for Stand Still) and animated tower shield

feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Elusive Target, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Toughness, Improved Combat Expertise, Quickdraw (assuming Jorgundsbrod isn't allowed in this forum).

OK, I'm curious how he'll turn out so I've statted him up:

stats: Str 30 (15 +5 lvl, +4 tome, +6 belt), Dex 16 (10+6 gloves), Con 16 (14+2 ioun stone), Int 13, Wis 14 (12+2 ioun stone), Cha 8

feats (human bonus+7 for levels, +11 fighter bonus feats): Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Elusive Target, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Toughness, Improved Combat Expertise, Quickdraw

HD: 20d10+80; HP: 195
AC: 44 base (+3 dex, +13 armor, +7 shield, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +1 insight), 45 when hasted, 46 with dodge; up to 66 using superior combat expertise, up to 72 using his ring of spell storing for Alter Self
Miss chance: 20% (concealment)
Atk: +38/+33/+28/+23 (+39/+39... hasted) [+20 BAB, +10 str, +2 greater weapon focus, +2 morale, +4 enhancement] for 1d10+23 19-20/x3 halberd [+15 strength, +4 weapon, +4 greater weapon specialization], or (+41/+41... for 1d10+25+2d6 halberd vs. evil outsiders) or +26/+21/+16/+11 ranged (1d6+11 javalin of returning or javalin of lighning) [+20 BAB, +3 dex, +2 morale, +1 enhancement];
Saves: +24/+18/+19 (+2 morale, +1 insight, +5 resistance, +1 luck)

Skills: Autohypnosis +9 (5 r cc), Climb +16 (10 r), Diplomacy +2 (1 r cc), Handle Animal +6 (5r), Intimidate +24 (23 r), Jump +16 (10r), Knowledge: Psionics: +6 (1 r cc) Ride +12 (5r), Spellcraft +4 (1 r cc), Swim +25 or +23 with shield (23r) [Universal bonus: +2 morale]

Gear: (760,000gp or so)
+4 Manual of Gainful Exercise 110kgp
+5 anti-impact (CW, +2000), Heartening (XPsiHB +720), Aporter (XPsiHB +40,320), Gleaming (XPsiHB +3 bonus), mithral fullplate 118.04kgp
+6 belt of giant strength 36kgp
+6 gloves of dexterity 36kgp
+5 cloak of resistance 25kgp
+2 ioun stone: wisdom 8kgp
+2 ioun stone: con 8kgp
+5 ring of protection 50kgp
+5 amulet of natural armor 50kgp
+5 animated heavy shield of moderate fortification 105,020gp
Luck Blade (no wishes--22,060gp)
4 javalins of lightning 6kgp
+4 Evil Outsider Bane, Parrying (XPsiHB, +1 bonus), adamantine halberd 75kgp
Boots of Speed 12kgp
Ring of Spell Storing 50,000gp (Alter Self and either See Invisibility and Enlarge Person or fly, or a quickened Divine Favor or Righteous Might)
Standard of Heroism (Complete Warrior 40kgp)
Sacred Scabbard (4,400gp)
Horn of Fog (2kgp)
Heward's Handy Haversack 2kgp
Plus a few thousand gp in extra javalins, consumables, etc.

If he's allowed to count on his allies as fighters are wont to do, with just a greater magic weapon and a magic vestment from the cleric, he can drop the enhancement bonus on his armor and weapon in exchange for either a +1 Holy Wounding Parrying Evil Outsider Bane adamantine halberd and a little extra cash to blow on mind-armor armor, an ioun stone of spell storing, a second ring of spell storing, or a gem of seeing or some combination of the above.

This character has a lot of tactical flexibility. Against foes with reach, he can spring attack, against multiple foes, he can cleave, or use Elusive Target in combination with combat expertise, mobility, and Spring Attack (which lets him choose one target from whom he doesn't want an AoO) to cause overreach and trip foes then take a free attack on them and possibly cleave. If he sets himself up properly, he can also cause one foe to miss and strike another enemy and, using spring attack, he doesn't have to stay in a flanked or easily flankable position to do so. He can trip quite well (+14 on the check--+19 if he is enlarged, +22 if Righteous Mighted) and can resist most grapple attempts with Close Quarters Fighting. The grapples that he doesn't resist, he can escape with his aportive armor. He can also pump his AC very high in order to absorb damage from the party's enemies and any time he finds himself in the middle of a full attack action with no more foes within reach, he can quickdraw various javalins and throw them at his enemies. He can even throw four or five javalins of lightning in one round which, while expensive, would certainly make a difference in a battle against multiple foes without evasion. In combat, he can jump over most minor obstacles and he can fairly reliably swim across open sea in full armor carrying a tower shield. That's not too impressive compared to teleport but makes for good bragging if he ever sits down at a table with Beowulf.
 
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Elder-Basilisk said:
Shadeus, that's an interesting fighter but you really need to do all the work and give him full equipment, full skills, and a full list of feats in order to take part in this competition which measures a variety of situational factors under things like "flexibility." It makes a very big difference if this fighter has a cape of the Montebank to escape from a collossal dragon's claws or whether grappled=defeated. Similarly, it makes a big difference whether the fighter can fly with some kind of boots, cloak, or potion or whether he is earthbound. All of those factors play a role here.

PS. I note that your fighter has only six relevant feats. A 15th level barbarian has that many feats. If you are posting here to demonstrate that Ftr 20 is a decent build, you will need to make full use of the 18-19 feats that a Ftr 20 gets. A build that a 20th level barbarian could duplicate (while spending a feat on Heavy Armor proficiency) won't do.

Oh, I did all the work but didn't post the additional information (like Blind Fight or Close Quarters Combat or the ring of freedom of movement). If I have time, I'll post it tonight from home.
 

Darklone said:
DC 32 Fort save... the fighter does not fight against the psywar, they both fight a hypothetical monster.

One more question: Encounter distance?

Having put some feats into archery and some money into an Oathbow might be interesting for the fighter.

Hmm, oops. Well, a DC 32 Fort is tough for just about anyone...well, just about.
 

Scion said:
Psychic warrior 20
HD 20d8+20*con = 133.5
BAB +15
F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +21 R +15 W +21
Bonus feats 8 = Talented, Overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic talent x4
Feats 7 = psionic talent x 7
Bonus feat 1 = extend power

Skills: (69) Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 23, knowledge (psionics) 10, Search 18

PP = 127 (base) + 65 (feats) + 80 (stat) = 272

Powers
1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Synesthete, (6) metaphysical weapon
2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Strength of my enemy, Body adjustment
3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback
4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption
5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback
6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Form of Doom, Mindblank (personal)


Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
+2 str, +2 wis, +1 dex
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
+ items
Str 26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8

Items: Girdle of giant str +6, headband of wisdom +6, +4 wisdom book, +4 str book, orange ioun stone, Standard of heroism, torc of power preservation, cloak of resistance +5
Adamantine chain shirt +1, gleaming, landing, linked, phasing, glamored, heartening, vanishing.
Adamantine shield +1, animated, heartening, heavy fortification.
adamantine two handed sword +1, suppression, wounding, lucky.

That's a nifty looking build but I notice that he's wearing two neck slot items (the periapt of wisdom converted to a headband along with the torc of power preservation) and he's somehow using the standard of heroism while wielding a greatsword. These aren't monumental issues since they're not entirely unreasonable but they do throw some doubt onto the validity of the comparison since fighters face massive slot difficulties and the ability to make a tabard of the montebank (shirt/robe slot) instead of slapping aportive on the armor (at a much higher cost) or to use bracers of health along with the amulet of natural armor would make a very big difference in the way that fighters are equipped and therefore in their capabilities.
 

well, the headband and necklace slots are two completely sepearate slots. Changing the periapt to a headband seemed all right though, as headband is for 'mental augmentations' and if wisdom isnt that... ;)

Still, I was going to simply get a belt of magnificence and not worry about it but that particular source was not offered as useable :( (the fact that the ability boosting items overlap in slots so heavily is very disturbing and not very beneficial. They were assigned pretty haphazardly back in the day and were not generally changed.)

Also, for the standard this guy simply has a polearm strapped to his back to which it is attatched. It doesnt say you have to weild the weapon it is attatched to, simply that you have it attatched to one.

This character isnt really min/maxed for gear though. I gave a cursory glance to various items and set him up with some very basic stuff. Given time and effort I could match it out much better. But really, both builds have the same amount of gear so that is largely immaterial. If someone happens to pick better gear than the other then that proves nothing.

Overall the character I posted looks like a lot of fun, if I am ever in that high of a game I might just try to play him ;)
 


Hey basilisk, your tower shield limits your max dex to +2 yes? And that armor check penalty total hurts :( you should make it of some special material I think. Looks to me like it is -13 to a host of skills and -26 to swim.
 

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