"Metadesign Principles of D&D"

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad,

You are forgetting a big piece of the puzzle: humanoid NPCs.

Certain kinds of magic items are more likely on the basis that they give good bang for the buck, as well as being an easy method of improving that character's forte.

If dead NPCs are not regularly providing these kinds of items, it means they are probably somewhat underpowered. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the PCs are also underpowered relative to the guidelines. But it will hit the NPCs proportionally harder because PCs have more ready access to animal buffs, Protection vs. Evil, etc.

This begs the question:

How much stuff do you give to NPC humanoids?

Do you give every NPC humanoid the same equivalent GP value of magic items that PCs get? For example, 19,000 GP for every 7th level NPC opponent?

Obviously not. Otherwise, the PCs would quickly acquire more magic items than the wealth by level table indicates.

But, with 13 encounters per level and maybe 25% of those against humanoid NPCs, that would mean that each humanoid NPC (assuming 4 of the same level per encounter) would have on average 1/13 of the DELTA of the wealth per level of the PCs and at most 4 * 1/13 of the delta (i.e. all magic item wealth is acquired by NPC humanoids).

So, a 7th level party of PCs facing off against a 7th level party of NPCs should encounter between 1/13 * (19,000 GP - 13,000 GP) = 461 GP on average and 1846 GP at most per NPC. That means that most 7th level NPC humanoid opponents could not even afford a single +1 magic weapon, let alone an ability score boosting item. The entire NPC party of four might only be able to afford one or two magic items.

They might more easily be able to afford a +1 Longsword (at 60% of the cost of a +2 ability score item) or a +1 Shield (at 30% of the cost). If you were an NPC BBEG, would you hand out one +2 Strength item at 4000 GP to your minions, or two +1 Longswords at 4630 GP, or fifty +1 arrows at 2000 GP?

With economics and plausibility in mind, wouldn't ability score items (especially ones at +4 or greater) be extremely few and far between? Sure, the BBEG could (or even should) have one in his main area of expertise, but beyond that, shouldn't they be rare?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet (or I glossed over it), but the level progression and encounters before resources exhausted would be another metadesign principle (14? encounters to level, 5 encounters should exhaust PCs resources).

Edit: Another would be: all attribute bonuses should be even numbers/divisions of 2 (exception inherent bonuses). Althougth there is probably some overriding design principle that encompasses this.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Size modifiers for special actions (grapple, disarm, etc.) occur in multiples of four.

Which (even it this doesn't really belong to this thread) seems to be a bit problematic sometimes, and I wonder if this will/should hold on in later editions or revisions.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This begs the question:

How much stuff do you give to NPC humanoids?

That is in fact an interesting question, and it might definitely indicate that "Magic Shops" are implied by the D&D rules. It is difficult (expensive) to give NPCs strong magical items.
But a compensation might be that not all enemies are NPCs with class levels. Many enemies (monsters) have a treasure rating, and the powerful magical item might be found there.

Another compensation might be found that some NPCs should be of higher level than the characters, which means they have more wealth. These NPCs might spend more money on their speciality, so an enemy spellcaster will concentrate on his "Item of Spellcasting Ability Score Boosting", or a warrior type on his weapon and his "Item of Attack Bonus Abiltiy Score Boosting", as these will contribute most to the regular encounter (even if this wouldn't make them a entirely viable character in the long run - but if they were, they would have full PC wealth. )

 

[glass]

Which reminds me: Anything that improves and ability score should give an even bonus. (Except for Inherent bonuses, presumably because they're the most difficult to obtain).

I think the exception is not because they are difficult to obtain, but they are linearly priced. A +5 bonus costs 5x what a +1 bonus costs. This is not the case with any other kind of stat bonus (unless you count the every-4-level increases, which also cost the same each (nothing), and also go up in ones).


glass.

 

[Benimoto]

So, a 7th level party of PCs facing off against a 7th level party of NPCs should encounter between 1/13 * (19,000 GP - 13,000 GP) = 461 GP on average and 1846 GP at most per NPC. That means that most 7th level NPC humanoid opponents could not even afford a single +1 magic weapon, let alone an ability score boosting item. The entire NPC party of four might only be able to afford one or two magic items.

I like your economic analysis, but you're making a few important flaws in your assumptions. First, the PCs might very well outnumber opponents who are of equal level. In fact, I hope they do, as otherwise the fight moves to an EL 4 higher than the party's level. In such a fight, I hope the party finds rewards better than simply average for their level.

Second, you're taking the average PC wealth gain and dividing that by the average number of encounters to determine how much treasure goes towards each encounter. That's true only if a) the PCs never have to pay for anything but their equipment and b) the PCs get 100% of the value of the magic items they find. If you give each NPC a +1 longsword, and all the PCs that want +1 longswords already have them, then you're not really increasing the party's wealth by the value of 5 +1 longswords. You're only increasing it by the value of what they can sell or trade them for, probably 50% of the actual value.

In either case, the DMG already gives wealth guidelines for NPCs. On page 55 it says that NPCs should have gear of around three times the average treasure value for their level. This should include one-use items that the PCs never actually get.

An encounter of 7th level would normally have 2600 gp of treasure. Following the DMG guidelines, that means that a 7th level NPC might have 7,800 gp of equipment. Granted, that's the most generous way of allocating it. Four 7th level NPCs are an EL 11 encounter and would only have 22,500 gp amongst themselves, but that still gives them enough for some +2 stat items, magical weapons & armor, potions, scrolls, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

Second, you're taking the average PC wealth gain and dividing that by the average number of encounters to determine how much treasure goes towards each encounter. That's true only if a) the PCs never have to pay for anything but their equipment and b) the PCs get 100% of the value of the magic items they find. If you give each NPC a +1 longsword, and all the PCs that want +1 longswords already have them, then you're not really increasing the party's wealth by the value of 5 +1 longswords. You're only increasing it by the value of what they can sell or trade them for, probably 50% of the actual value.

Even at 50%, the guidelines you quote can easily give the PCs a lot more wealth than they should ever get. And except for a few bribes to NPCs or spells cast by NPCs, most PC expenses are fairly trivial compared to the wealth that they acquire.

If they buy an inn, they still have the value of the inn as part of their wealth (assuming it does not burn to the ground or some such).

In either case, the DMG already gives wealth guidelines for NPCs. On page 55 it says that NPCs should have gear of around three times the average treasure value for their level. This should include one-use items that the PCs never actually get.

One Use items rarely get used by NPCs either. Sure, a few one use items might get used in a combat, typically Potion of Curings or Invisibility or offensive/defensive scrolls, or some such, but that is usually a very small percentage of the actual wealth in an encounter. If it were a high percentage of the wealth, then the NPCs would typically not have enough time to use them.

An encounter of 7th level would normally have 2600 gp of treasure. Following the DMG guidelines, that means that a 7th level NPC might have 7,800 gp of equipment. Granted, that's the most generous way of allocating it. Four 7th level NPCs are an EL 11 encounter and would only have 22,500 gp amongst themselves, but that still gives them enough for some +2 stat items, magical weapons & armor, potions, scrolls, etc.

According to the DMG, four 7th level classed NPCs (with PC classes, not NPC classes) would have 31,200 GP (4 * 7800 GP). You do not convert it to an EL 11 encounter to lower the GP. That's 97.5% of the wealth 7th level characters should acquire by the time they get to 8th level.

Defeating such a group would be a challenge. It would gain the 7th level group 2100 XP each or 30% of the XP needed to get to 8th.

That's nearly 100% of the wealth for 30% of a level.

Even assuming a worse case scenario of none of the items being useable by the PCs, assuming a worse case scenario of none of the items found in all of the other encounters by the PCs until they reach 8th level being useable by the PCs, and assuming they only get 50% for all of this wealth, that would mean that the PCs should acquire 32,800 GP more in wealth (give or take some minor expenses) for the other 70% of the XP needed to get to 8th level.

Now granted, a PC group could get experience for Roleplaying, accomplishing missions, etc., but one has to be careful in assigning encounter wealth as per the DMG, especially for NPC "humanoid classed opponents", if you want to more or less stay in the ballpark of the wealth by level charts for PCs.

If the DM has multiple encounters of slightly lower level classed NPCs, the PCs could easily gain a lot more wealth than their level indicates.

 

[Benimoto]

Even at 50%, the guidelines you quote can easily give the PCs a lot more wealth than they should ever get. And except for a few bribes to NPCs or spells cast by NPCs, most PC expenses are fairly trivial compared to the wealth that they acquire.

If they buy an inn, they still have the value of the inn as part of their wealth (assuming it does not burn to the ground or some such).

Really, the main expense here is spellcasting, and raise dead spells. These are difficult to break down and figure into an equation, but I generally figure 10% of the treasure the PCs get at a given level will go into things like that.

One Use items rarely get used by NPCs either. Sure, a few one use items might get used in a combat, typically Potion of Curings or Invisibility or offensive/defensive scrolls, or some such, but that is usually a very small percentage of the actual wealth in an encounter. If it were a high percentage of the wealth, then the NPCs would typically not have enough time to use them.

It doesn't matter if the NPCs get to use them in the encounter or not. As long as somebody uses the item before the PCs' next level, then you can't really count it towards the PCs wealth gain that level.

Now granted, a PC group could get experience for Roleplaying, accomplishing missions, etc., but one has to be careful in assigning encounter wealth as per the DMG, especially for NPC "humanoid classed opponents", if you want to more or less stay in the ballpark of the wealth by level charts for PCs.

If the DM has multiple encounters of slightly lower level classed NPCs, the PCs could easily gain a lot more wealth than their level indicates.

I agree. No matter how much wealth you assigne to the NPCs, it's important to keep an eye on the overall treasure you're assigning, and to keep the wealth of the PCs in balance with what you intend for the campaign. Most NPCs though, to be worth their CR, need a reasonable amount of equipment. That amount is generally higher than the average treasure value for that level. So, the DM needs to be careful to balance NPC encounters in some way, perhaps with encounters that leave less than the average treasure value.

Anyhow, I'm sure we're using some of the metadesign principles here, but we're not really talking directly about them anymore.

 

[KarinsDad]

It doesn't matter if the NPCs get to use them in the encounter or not. As long as somebody uses the item before the PCs' next level, then you can't really count it towards the PCs wealth gain that level.

I had not really thought about it like this before. Thanks.

Our group does not include charged items (i.e. scrolls, potions, and wands) as treasure (when splitting up treasure) due to the fact that they get used up while adventuring. Whoever can best use them, gets them and uses them at their discretion. Ditto for pearls for Identify spells. However, as a DM, I do consider it part of the current party wealth. When it is used, some other treasure is typically acquired anyway and regardless of whether that happens, there is suddenly a new "current party wealth" (be it greater or less than previously).

 

[Pickaxe]

How about:

Armor and weapons should be balanced by things beyond armor bonus and damage.
--For armor, max dex, speed, ASF, type of proficiency, armor check penalty, and cost
--For weapons: crit modifier, affect on using a shield, affect on TWF, advantages for special attacks, type of proficiency, ranged vs. melee, reloading, and cost.

Ranged weapons should generally do less damage than comparable melee weapons (e.g., throwing axe vs. handaxe), because they can be used without subjecting the wielder to opposing melee attacks. Things that would be particularly good with ranged attacks (e.g., sneak attacks) should be limited to within 30' to keep the shooter within potential risk of melee attack.

Ability to use armor or weapons should ultimately be determined by the character, regardless of class, not proscribed by the rules of the class. Even classes with "prohibitions" can break them, provided they are willing to accept the consequences.

There should be a rationale for why every weapon and armor exists, even if it's just that it's cheap. (Chain shirt is superior to scale mail, but it's easier to outfit an army in the latter, or in padded for that matter.)

--Axe