MIC: Ironward Diamond....Overpowered?

[James McMurray]

Really? In core I can't think of one that is better. Bane is _really_ nice, but highly limited. Flame and the other elemental damage are actually pretty weak. Holy is nice, but again somewhat limited.

What's that good? I always take the pure +'s when building a higher level character.

Mark

You can't just look at core. At the very least you should also consider the things that are in MIC.

but looking at just core: Holy, in most situations, is better than +2 to hit and damage. For a rogue (the guy that likes to sneak attack undead) Bane (Undead) is better than +1 to hit and damage). For most folks Ghost Touch is better than +1 to hit and damage. All sorts of crazy combos work off of Spell Storing.

Moving to add in MIC: With the right build Charging is better than +1 to hit and damage. Hunting (again with the right build) is better than +1 to hit and damage. Impaling is better than +1 to hit and damage.If you've got more than one nuker in the party, Shattermantle is insanely better than +1 to hit and damage. Vampiric can be much better than +2 to hit and damage, trading 3 points of damage (assuming max power attack) for 3 points of healing. A Rod of Enervating Strike is better than a +3 Heavy Mace against most creatures, and insanely better than the mace if the wielder is undead.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, it's the Rules issue.

"Is the cost appropriate?" doesn't have a black and white answer. "Can a Greater Ironward Diamond be used with Mithral Full Plate?" does... we're just arguing about what that answer is

-Hyp.

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the argument. I think it's a weird and mostly pointless discussion, but it's still enjoyable.

 

[KarinsDad]

Right. And limitations caused by wearing medium armor are limitations that apply to medium armor. For the purpose of limitations, Mithral Full Plate is Medium armor.

It doesn't matter how you slice it Hyp.

A limitation due to wearing medium armor (cannot be used with the crystal) is not a limitation due to wearing heavy armor.

I am stating that the sentence:

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

with reference to Mithral Full Plate means:

Mithral full plate is one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations caused by the wearing of full plate.

No other limitations for no other reason. Only those limitations that occur to the wearer due to the fact that he is wearing full plate.


Use of the greater ironward diamond is not a limitation of wearing full plate (it's an advantage over medium armor if used).

AC 8 (for the armor alone) is not a limitation of wearing full plate (but is achieved by doing so and is an advantage over medium armor).


Lack of use of the greater ironward diamond is a limitation of wearing medium armor.

Lack of AC 8 (for the armor alone) is a limitation of wearing medium armor.


Taking your (inverted) interpretation (of what is an advantage and what is a limitation) to its semantical conclusion, the fact that medium armor has a max (mundane) AC of 5 is a limitation of medium armor and therefore, Mithral Full Plate does not have an AC of 8. Because according to you, "For the purpose of limitations, Mithral Full Plate is Medium armor.". Any limitation. Even those of medium armors.

 

[hong]

Lack of use of the greater ironward diamond is a limitation of wearing medium armor.

The greater ironward diamond has the limitation that it's heavy armour only.

 

[KarinsDad]

The greater ironward diamond has the limitation that it's heavy armour only.

Precisely.

But that is not a limitation of wearing heavy armor. It is an advantage of wearing heavy armor.

Just like AC 8 is an advantage of wearing full plate armor.

 

[hong]

Precisely.

Precisely.

But that is not a limitation of wearing heavy armor.

But it is a limitation of the ironward diamond.

 

[KarinsDad]

But it is a limitation of the ironward diamond.

So what? It's a limitation for non-heavy armor, not a limitation of wearing heavy armor.


What are the limitations of wearing heavy armor? x, y, z

Is the limitation of the ironward diamond a limitation of wearing heavy armor? No. It is an advantage of wearing heavy armor. If one wears heavy armor, he can use the diamond.

Then, it is not an aspect for which heavy mithral armor is considered medium.


The flaw in Hyp's (and your) logic is that you are assuming that Mithral Full Plate is Medium Armor in all ways, shapes, and forms, and hence, a limitation to medium armor applies to this armor. But, Mithral Full Plate is not medium armor. It is still full plate. It is treated as medium armor for the purposes of movement and limitations of wearing heavy armor, but it is not medium armor.

For example, it is not medium armor with regard to AC since AC is not a limitation of wearing full plate.


It amazes me that people think an advantage of wearing heavy armor like the diamond is a limitation.

 

[hong]

So what? It's a limitation for non-heavy armor, not a limitation of wearing heavy armor.

No, it's a limitation of the ironward diamond.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it's a limitation of the ironward diamond.

Yes it is. Again, so what?

Mithral Full Plate is not Medium Armor.

 

[hong]

Yes it is. Again, so what?

Mithral Full Plate is not Medium Armor.

Yes it is, for the purpose of limitations.