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Mighty Crossbows

FoxWander

Adventurer
Rackhir said:
Actually, you are dead wrong about this unless you are planning on permiting a rather higher level of technology. What you are referring to in that link is not a composite bow, but a COMPOUND Bow, which is a totally different kettle of fish.
Etc... <snip>

Yes, I know the difference between compound and composite bows (not that I could expect you to psychically know that! :p )- but I wasn't refering to the bow in that link. I was refering to the draw-lock device itself. You can see the device much better in this pic from the site- "How to use" illustration. A locking bar and trigger device like that could be fitted to any kind of bow. I did a research article on crossbows way back in high school and found a mgazine article that showed you how to build your own. The Draw-Loc webpage was just the easiest one I could find to show it.

The reason I brought it up was to pre-empt arguments that "a bow is NOT a crossbow" like my old DM used once. Back in my 2E games (when the "Mighty Bow" was called a "Bow of Strength", I think it came from a Dragon article), I wanted to apply the same "strength" principle to a crossbow. My DM basically had a thing against crossbows and said I couldn't do it- in his mind they were NOT the same thing and the principles of one couldn't be applied to the other. This lead to a long after-game discussion/argument where I eventually showed him the article I'd found and turned the picture sideways to show him how it basically turned a bow into a crossbow. Eventually I got my Crossbow of Strength, it just cost a bunch of money and lead to a fun adventure to find the skilled dwarven craftsman who could do it. Anyway- I just thought it was a cool gadget to bring up and vaguely relevant to this discussion.
 
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Azlan

First Post
Knight-of-Roses said:
Aaron, correct, Strength only effects load time. Get the half orc in the party to recock all of them and you are golden.

Hmm... I imagine a heavy crossbow built with +4 mighty is going to be massive. So, even if the group's half-orc barbarian cocks it, I can't picture the group's halfling rogue carrying it and firing it.

Each increment of "mighty" should increase the weight, if not the size, of the crossbow. So, while a normal crossbow has a wooden bow, a +2 mighty crossbow has a steel-reinforced wooden bow, and a +4 mighty crossbow has a bow of solid steel.

BTW: Not only does the type - light, heavy, great - of crossbow determine the device (and thus the time) required to span and lock it, but it also determines the size and weight of the bolts used to load it. Ammunition should not be interchangeable between light, heavy, and great crossbows.
 
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Aaron2

Explorer
Azlan said:
Hmm... I imagine a heavy crossbow built with +4 mighty is going to be massive. So, even if the group's half-orc barbarian cocks it, I can't picture the group's halfling rogue carrying it and firing it.

A halfling would have to be using a small heavy crossbow which would be lighter and do less damage than a medium heavy crossbow. Either that or take a -2 penalty to hit. (3.5ism). Also, the penalty for firing one handed varies with the size of the crossbow; hand -0, light -2, heavy -4 and great is not allowed.

BTW: Not only does the type - light, heavy, great - of crossbow determine the device (and thus the time) required to :):):):) it, but it also determines the size and weight of the bolts used to load it. Ammunition should not be interchangeable between light, heavy, and great crossbows.

I'm not sure this actually true. I've seen pictures of early lighter crossbows (ones that you could span by just pulling the strings with your hands) that were fairly wide while the more modern steel crossbows were quite stout. (see picture above) It's possible to increase the pull of the crossbow without increasing its draw length and, thus, use the same bolts. As a DM, I have a hard enough time keeping track of everyone's arrows. I'd hate to keep track of both quantity and type. (same with treasure).


Aaron
 

Azlan

First Post
Aaron2 said:
I guess you see a heavy crossbow as a siege weapon whereas I see it as a typical crossbow (the light crossbow being one that can be easily spanned by hand or with a simple belt and claw).

A heavy crossbow isn't a siege weapon, but a great crossbow probably is (at least, as far as historical comparisons go).
 

Rackhir

Explorer
Actualy you are wrong about the multiplier on the compound bow. The mechanical advantage offered by a compound bow is actualy quite ingeneous. Remember that you still need to pull the string back and that force is what is used to propel the arrow. However, once the string is pulled back to the bows "Sweet Spot", the force required to hold it there is reduced by a factor of 10 (I think, I'm not sure the actual factor). This means that while it may take 75lbs of pull strength in your arm to get it to ready, you only need to deal with 7-8 pounds while you aim. This help mostly in a steady aim and lower arm fatigue.

I was thinking the STR multiplier from the perspective that the greater maximum pull and ease of holding would permit a character to use a much stronger pull bow. It is after all much easier to exert more force for a short period of time, but I was also under the impression that the compound bow setup also reduced the difficulty of drawing the bow string back.

Yes, I know the difference between compound and composite bows (not that I could expect you to psychically know that! )- but I wasn't refering to the bow in that link. I was refering to the draw-lock device itself. You can see the device much better in this pic from the site- "How to use" illustration. A locking bar and trigger device like that could be fitted to any kind of bow. I did a research article on crossbows way back in high school and found a mgazine article that showed you how to build your own. The Draw-Loc webpage was just the easiest one I could find to show it.

It was not entirely clear from your statement if you did, but it was not the whole reason I mentioned that. As I pointed out a traditional bow/composite bow can't be left strung for long periods of time without ruining it. So the device you pointed out would really be of at best limited usefulness. Compound bows are in fact are almost never unstrung, which is one of the reasons why a device like that is useful with one.

The foot pull that was show in the illustration reminds me of There were some bows used that were in fact pulled with the whole body, with archer lying down, the feet braced against the bow and holding on to the bow string with one's hands, but I think they were only used in limited circumstances since its not the best position to be in in combat.

I just find the whole idea of a "Strength Crossbow" to be essentially an oximoron. Since the bowman's strength really only affects reloading speed and it's the preset power of the crossbow that determines the damage.

I really think in fact that there shouldn't be "Mighty Bows" at all. The strength damage modifiers should be an inherent part of using a bow, not some extra optional feature. I suspect the reason it is done the way it is, probably comes down to more game balance mechanics than any logical reason. Simply because of the significantly increased lethality of an archer with the added damage gets.

If you really wanted a crossbow that did more damage, which is what the argument really comes down to. I would say require exotic materials or something similar to that for the damage bonus. Adamantine crossbows get an extra +4 damage due to their stronger bows or Mythril crossbows get +2 damage and take 1 phase/action less to reload due to the light weight and flexibility of their bows.
 

Aaron2

Explorer
Rackhir said:
I was thinking the STR multiplier from the perspective that the greater maximum pull and ease of holding would permit a character to use a much stronger pull bow. It is after all much easier to exert more force for a short period of time, but I was also under the impression that the compound bow setup also reduced the difficulty of drawing the bow string back.

The pull on a regular 'ol longbow starts out small and gets progressivly harder as the bow is drawn. It's at its hardest pull when fully drawn. A compound bow gets harder faster but it also drops off significantly when fully drawn. By spreading out the force more evenly throughout the drawing process, you can store more energy with a lower strength maximum pull.

For those interested in physics, I found two good links. Its ok to just look at the pictures ;)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/dforce.htm
http://www.unifi.it/unifi/surfchem/solid/bardi/archery/modelingbows/

I just find the whole idea of a "Strength Crossbow" to be essentially an oximoron. Since the bowman's strength really only affects reloading speed and it's the preset power of the crossbow that determines the damage.

We are talking about the exact thing. The crossbowman's strength is only used to determine the reload time, not the damage.

I really think in fact that there shouldn't be "Mighty Bows" at all. The strength damage modifiers should be an inherent part of using a bow, not some extra optional feature. I suspect the reason it is done the way it is, probably comes down to more game balance mechanics than any logical reason. Simply because of the significantly increased lethality of an archer with the added damage gets.

I didn't like the way the system worked either, so I suggested replacing it with multiple weapon that require higher minimum strength to use. The idea didn't do anywhere.

[shameless plug]
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1162384#post1162384

Aaron
 

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