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Milk from Cows?

Naathez said:
What's always, REALLY puzzled me is who was the first man to sit behind a chicken and say "All right. Here goes nothing. I'm eating the first things that comes outta its..." :lol:
Heh. At least it's easier for that man. Some men have tried running behind a dinosaur waiting for something to drop. :p
 

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Ranger REG said:
There is only so much milk a human female can produce, though a group of human females can feed a child.

Right, and that's an incentive to drink the milk of other animals. If the ladies can only provide so much of the sort ofthing that helps young'uns grow up strong and healthy, it then makes a whole lot of sense to go looking for a source of something similar.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Go back to Henry's post (#23 in this thread)- there's a link that will tell you why. Basically, it boils down to a combination of hundreds of documented cases of severe burns caused by hotter than normal coffee (180+ deg. F as opposed to about 130 deg. F)...that McDonalds had settled before for between $10k-50k, an industry standard of generally not serving food hotter than 150 deg. F, and other factors.

In the eyes of the law, that's a pattern of releasing a defective product.

Without getting too far into it, this should be rephrased as "in the eyes of a jury looking for someone with deep pockets". In any realistic analysis of the facts, the rate of injury caused by McDonald's coffee being "too hot" is microscopic, one the order of one instance in tens of millions of cups served.

I've read the data, it is thrown out there by apologists for this silliness every time it comes up. And it's never persuasive once you sit down and work through it. It just boils down to this: she's a little old lady who got hurt through her own fault, and McDonalds had lots of money.
 

Without getting too far into it, this should be rephrased as "in the eyes of a jury looking for someone with deep pockets". In any realistic analysis of the facts, the rate of injury caused by McDonald's coffee being "too hot" is microscopic, one the order of one instance in tens of millions of cups served.

I've read the data, it is thrown out there by apologists for this silliness every time it comes up. And it's never persuasive once you sit down and work through it. It just boils down to this: she's a little old lady who got hurt through her own fault, and McDonalds had lots of money.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have to respond (getting on high horse):

First, let me state: I'm an attorney who grew up in a medical houshold- I know a little about the law and serious injury. And, like I said, I met the attorney who tried this particular case.

#1) She was not completely at fault. Most jurisdictions allow recovery for injuries in product liability cases as long as the victim was less than 50% at fault. Some allow recovery for whatever % cannot be attributed to the victim. Here, the jury found she was only 20% at fault.

The fact: She was a passenger in a motionless car attempting to modify her drink. It spilled, resulting in 3rd degree burns. Burns TYPICAL of coffee, soup, and other hot liquids are only 1st or 2nd degree burns (partial thickness burns). 3rd degree burns (full thickness burns) completely destroy layers of skin to the point that normal healing is improbable and skin grafts are required. Any hotter, and muscle or bone could have been damaged.

#2) Even if there is only 1 injury in 1M uses, if the severity of the injury is such that it is inordinate for the activity or normal use of the product, then your product is BY LAW defective- that is "breach of the implied warranties of fitness for a particular purpose and of merchantability imposed by the Uniform Commercial Code." There were not many injuries in the Ford Pinto case either- 3 deaths and 4 other serious injuries out of the first 1.5M vehicles sold, another 6 deaths by the time the production run hit 2.2M. It was ruled that the risk of death/mortal injury in a collision due to the car's faulty design was so high as to be negligent. Burns of this severity carry with them the risk of serious infection during recovery. Opportunistic infection actually the leading cause of death among burn patients because the necessity of skin grafts also requires immunosupressant medications to minimize the risk of tissue rejection of the grafts.

#3) There is an industry standard of not serving foods hotter than 130deg F to minimize risk of serious injury due to burns. By insisting on using a standard in their coffee at variance with the industry standard (their coffee was 45% hotter than industry standards), McDonalds opened themselves up for liability- at that temp, 3rd degree burns occur in 2-7 seconds- too quickly to treat or mitigate the damage. At industry standard temps, 3rd degree burns are still possible, but it takes nearly a minute. McDonalds even admitted that their coffee was “not fit for consumption” at point-of-sale due to extreme heat.

With more than 700 previous cases over 10 years, McDonalds had more evidence of danger than Ford did on the Pinto. Even if this had been a bench trial (before a judge and not a jury) McDonalds would have lost, as is evidenced by the Appeals Court reducing the punative damages (and ONLY the punative damages) award instead of overturning it or remanding it for retrial. In other words, the Appeals Court (a panel of 3 or more judges) found there were no errors of fact or law mandating either action, merely an error in the calculation of the amount of punative damages.


#4) A third of the final, post-appeal total award (@200k) was merely to cover her medical expenses.

The fact is: McDonalds, like Ford, had a faulty product, knew it, kept it on the market unchanged, and got smacked for it.

(dismount)
 
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Originally posted by Dannyalcatraz
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have to respond (getting on high horse):

Heh. This entire thread has been a little off the subject. I had originally intended it to be fairly serious, but I had too much fun to care. So I certainly didn't help keep it on subject. *shrug*

Anyway, to what you said, it is interesting, but I still believe the entire incident was kind of silly, though I suppose it's mainly because I wasn't the one being burned. :)
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
It was ruled that the risk of death/mortal injury in a collision due to the car's faulty design was so high as to be negligent.

It is important to note that "risk" and "probability" are not the same thing.

The probability of injury can be estimated simply by taking the total number of injuries seen, and dividing that bythe total number of units sold. McDs sells a lot of coffe that doesn't result ininjuries, so the probability is low.

The risk of injury, however, is a measure that combines both the probability of injury, and the potential severity of injury. A thing that will kill you is high risk, even at modestly low probability. Skydiving, for example, might be seen as high risk - not because lots of people get hurt doing it, but because if something goes wrong, it's broken bones or spinal injury or death for you. A $1 roulette bet isn't really taking a risk. A $10,000 roulette bet is (at least for non-millionaires).
 


Exactly, Umbran. The probability of injury in a Pinto was low (though higher than industry norms), but the SEVERITY of injury was HIGH. Ditto McDonald's coffee.

Or, as is often cited, travel by space shuttle (injuries/miles travel) is the safest form of all. Its just that when something goes wrong...
 

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