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OSR Minimum Requirements for OSR?

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I'm working on an OSR mashup of games, but my old-school experience goes back only as far as AD&D 2e. I'm using a modified THAC0, theatre-of-mind (no grid), classes and races, memorized spells, a thieving table, maybe roll-under skills...(don't worry - it's just for fun)

What am I missing? What makes a game OSR to you (that isn't the actual book by TSR)?
 

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Yora

Legend
This is a tough one, because there's no one true way to define the OSR. The biggest thing isn't to capture a rule or mechanic, but to capture the feel of that time. And that is going to be hard if you never experienced it.
Even that could be debated.

And I think it's in large part been that debate that made the term become obsolete.

I think the people who made the biggest splash and got the most recognition mostly had very little interest in capturing whatever the game was back in the 70s and early 80s. They were mostly interested in rummaging through grandpa's big box of old stuff to get more ideas for new innovative things.
 

Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
To me 5e isn't that much OSR, mainly because it lacks that element of danger and lethality. 5e characters are too resilient and too complex, magic is too easy and combat is too desirable.

5e combat is pretty lethal if you take the gloves off and give the PCs dangerous opponents. It does have fewer instant-death effects than 1e did (especially 'save or die' poison on minor enemies), but combat gets lethal quickly if PCs are not facing encounters that are designed to just be a minor resource drain. If you make 'deadly' encounters with multiple opponents the baseline and routinely encounter groups that rank as 2-6x deadly (with the 4-6x zone generally being 'PCs should not fight this directly) and don't have enemies always ignore 0hp PCs, you'll see PCs die a lot in 5e if they have to engage in fights.

Are the default encounter-building guidelines such a core part of the game that they disqualify a game? It seems silly that if I made 5.1e by taping construction paper over all of the recommendations for building encounters and using CR for anything other than XP in my books, 5e would not be an OSR game but 5.1e would be.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Even that could be debated.

And I think it's in large part been that debate that made the term become obsolete.

I think the people who made the biggest splash and got the most recognition mostly had very little interest in capturing whatever the game was back in the 70s and early 80s. They were mostly interested in rummaging through grandpa's big box of old stuff to get more ideas for new innovative things.
Which I guess would be fitting, because Tim Kask had said a few years ago that that's exactly what they did when they started the company: "We stole every trope there was." lol.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Thought of another one:

--- a general player-side sense of mystery and wonder.

This one's hard to achieve intentionally, but can be encouraged a little by:

  • - - moving some rules and mechanics back to the DM side of the screen (combat matrix, saving throw tables, magic item pricing, etc.). Yes this means th eplayers have to trust the DM and that the DM has to play in good faith; but if this isn't already the case anyway then there's bigger problems at the table that these discussions probably can't solve.
  • - - having it that monster stats and DM-side rules are, by general agreement, off-limits to players
  • - - having the setting, other than the very local area where play begins, also be a mystery, slowly revealed as the campaign goes along
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
I'm working on an OSR mashup of games, but my old-school experience goes back only as far as AD&D 2e. I'm using a modified THAC0, theatre-of-mind (no grid), classes and races, memorized spells, a thieving table, maybe roll-under skills...(don't worry - it's just for fun)

What am I missing? What makes a game OSR to you (that isn't the actual book by TSR)?

The central feature of the OSR is compatibility with TSR D&D. Barring that, the most important peripheral features IMO aren't the same ones typically quoted from the primers and the principiæ.

• In an old-school game, the DM must abandon the idea of precious plots, or the notion that it's a waste of time to create content that the players never encounter. The DM is building a sandbox world: the players may never see whole swaths of it. So the game rules have to make world-building and dungeon-building easy. Tables for procedurally generating hexes and dungeon rooms and monster encounters and treasure hoards are appreciated. All the better if they're structured in such a way that they generally match low-level monsters up with low-level treasures, upper dungeon floors, and more populated hexagons; vs. high-level monsters with high-level treasures, deep dungeon levels, and wild wilderness. Also, something that most OSR games don't bother with (beyond the odd dungeon-restocking table) but should: rules for evolving the game-world dynamically, including dungeon restocking, overworld events, and alterations to wilderness hexes over time.

• In an old-school game, the players must abandon the idea of precious protagonists. Not just because characters can die, but also because characters will take time to do things that remove them from ordinary play (like healing up from wounds, doing research, crafting or building things), while time in the campaign marches on. And so you can't always take your favorite or highest-level or best-equipped character on every adventure. Sometimes your favorite fighter is healing up for a couple of weeks, and so you need to take your lower-level magic-user, or your hobbit who only carries a +1 sword, for a spin. So the game should support fast, easy, partly random character generation without too many decision points—no need for "builds," in other words. Characters get more powerful mainly through what they do and find in the game world (fighters find cool magical arms, mages collect cool items and spells), and this should broadly outweigh characters getting more powerful through level advancement alone (like clerical spells or thief skills: better for a thief to find elven boots than run up his Move Silently percentage).

• In an old-school game, we generally want to model or simulate reality without relying on tedious rules to do it. That is, the referee is there to make rulings so that the game-world operates according to common sense and logic, and nobody has to look anything up on huge tables or do physics equations or consult a textbook on economics. The DM just applies their best judgement. For some things, like combat, they're important enough to have detailed rules, but still abstract because it would be an utter pain to model real wounds and weapon strikes—so we offload that onto a simple system like HP, AC, and attack rolls. But where it counts—planning expeditions, carrying supplies, counting rations and torches and arrows, hiring henchmen and porters and grooms and bringing along animals and carts and so forth—while some OSR games try to abstract this sort of thing away too, it's probably not the best idea to handwave such a central feature of a game that's ostensibly about exploration. So you want your game instead to include mechanics that make things like encumbrance and resource-tracking and henchman-wrangling as effortless (and even fun) as possible.
 

GuyBoy

Hero
For me, it’s as much about atmosphere as it is about rules.
The following make me think OSR:
  • 10 foot poles
  • henchmen and hirelings
  • pack mules in dungeons
  • deities
  • bugbears with pumpkin heads
  • dungeons that get more dangerous as you descend levels
  • save or die
  • random treasure rolling using monster treasure type tables

But then, equally for me, it’s about playing in the school canteen on a Wednesday after school, and walking home from rugby matches, bruised but looking forward to playing D&D later that day.

Perhaps more seriously, given recent events, it’s about being proud to be a D&D player and still being a decent person in terms of respecting others.
 

The distinction, even if slight, between "classic" and "osr" is meaningful, I think, insofar as the latter is a reconstruction of the former. Games like maze rats or into the odd (or even black hack) are not generally compatible with tsr editions out of the box, but are attempts to distill an osr playstyle into a modern ruleset.

On updating classic for modern play:
 

DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Lot of good thoughts here.

For me, I would say:
  • The "combat as war" mentality, where winning fights isn't the goal, not all fights are winnable, and "preparing for a fight" means doing everything humanly possible to make it a boring, easy fight. This is a matter of player skill, next. Also related to the "XP for treasure" versus "XP for winning encounters" models.
  • Basically, the game is a series of very difficult problems with harsh consequences for failure. The game is a test of the players' ability to solve those problems, in the course of play, rather than the characters' ability to solve them with a die roll. This is always measured on a spectrum, for every roleplaying game, but you want to lean hard in the direction of player skill, with character skill representing tools that clever players use to solve problems.
  • Again, harsh consequences for failure. I'm actually not a big fan of quick and easy deaths in D&D, because sitting out of the game for 10-15 minutes to roll up a new character doesn't feel harsh to me. Creating a problem the whole table has to live with every session until they find a way to fix it? That hurts.
  • Maximizing player agency means that player characters live in a world full of threats and opportunities, not plots. The players choose what their characters do in (and to) the world, and how they do it, and the world always changes and responds accordingly.
  • Players learn who their characters are by playing them through those difficult decisions and in the quiet moments between them. When you have the freedom to do anything, you are defined by what you choose to do. Giving players less control of their characters before play starts reinforces this, as does moving the locus of play from OOC decisions to IC decisions.
To me, that is "old school play", that is the OSR. Everything else-- BAB versus THAC0; the Mos Eisley cantina versus the Prancing Pony; high magic versus low magic-- are just the trappings of changing tastes in fantasy, themselves driving and driven by changes in D&D, rather than representative of the fundamental core of what makes those older games so compelling, and why they were popular enough to create the industry that took them in the wrong direction.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
• In an old-school game, the players must abandon the idea of precious protagonists. Not just because characters can die, but also because characters will take time to do things that remove them from ordinary play (like healing up from wounds, doing research, crafting or building things), while time in the campaign marches on. And so you can't always take your favorite or highest-level or best-equipped character on every adventure. Sometimes your favorite fighter is healing up for a couple of weeks, and so you need to take your lower-level magic-user, or your hobbit who only carries a +1 sword, for a spin. So the game should support fast, easy, partly random character generation without too many decision points—no need for "builds," in other words. Characters get more powerful mainly through what they do and find in the game world (fighters find cool magical arms, mages collect cool items and spells), and this should broadly outweigh characters getting more powerful through level advancement alone (like clerical spells or thief skills: better for a thief to find elven boots than run up his Move Silently percentage).
There's several key elements in there; and good catches.

In short form:

--- each player (probably) has multiple characters in the setting, and henches etc. as well. Good catch.
--- increase of character power and ability is achieved through external (items, spells) rather than internal (level-based abilities) means, to a noticeably greater extent than in modern games.
--- the philosophy of planning out a character's "build" many levels in advance largely goes away.
 

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