Minor items negating major challenges

[James McMurray]

Does anyone else have experiences with minor items or powers negating much higher level challenges?

The example that came up in our game this week is Tumbler's Shoes (from AV). They're an 11th level item that lets you take 10 on Athletics and Acrobatics checks at all times. In our epic game there is a skill challenge where one of the primary skills is a DC 34 Athletics check. The PCs who are trained in Athletics can make that every time when taking ten (12/level + 7 or more/stat + 5/training). The ones who aren't trained can (IIRC) make it every time as well, but will need to buy an Elixer of Aptitude first. What should be an incredibly hard challenge (level 30 according to the erratta with the +5 for skill checks included) is instead a cakewalk.

I don't think the shoes are broken, they're just interacting with a skill challenge in an unexpected way. If this weren't a solo challenge (one PC at a time) there would still be a chance of failure unless everyone bought a pair.

Have you seen anything like this in your games?

 

[Henry]

In this particular case, I think it's the errata that's causing the problem, myself. As you note, a level 24 character can make this half of the time, which is not an "incredibly difficult challenge" to me. If it were a skill challenge, the table might be better, but in my opinion it made straight one-time skill tests far too easy. I have seen other items make things pretty easy (a commonly mentioned warlock with rod of corruption makes it a lot easier to kill minions, for instance) but an item that lets you take 10 isn't too crazy, to me, it's just the way the skill challenge section went that I disagree with.

 

[James McMurray]

The errataed table has worked fairly well for us so far, as long as I leave the footnotes on. The only reason this was even an issue is because they can do the challenge one at a time and so don't have to rely on anyone else, and won't have to worry that their inability to fail will get overridden by a bunch of other people failing.

 

[Prism]

Just interested to know if you wouldn't have allowed take 10 without the item. Were the party under threat or would you not allow take since as a skill challenge counts as an encounter

so far we have items fairly irrelevant to the outcome of combat. not got any skill items yet

 

[James McMurray]

The skill challenge in question involves swimming in a maelstrom of elemental chaos, taking it into yourself, and surviving. Take 10 definitely wouldn't be allowed normally. And in general we don't allow take 10 on a skill challenge, as it would mean either setting DCs too high to account for it or giving away free XP.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, by RAW taking 10 works in a skill challenge most of the time ... so the boots have a greater effect in your game.

 

[Saeviomagy]

From the sounds of things, your players are simply walking across a rope or something?

It doesn't really sound like skill challenge material to me.

 

[James McMurray]

Well, by RAW taking 10 works in a skill challenge most of the time ... so the boots have a greater effect in your game.

That could be true (no books handy). We're not big fans of throwing free XP at people, nor of making challenges harder than they should be to avoid that, so perhaps we've been house ruling it all along.

From the sounds of things, your players are simply walking across a rope or something?

It doesn't really sound like skill challenge material to me.

I'm not sure where you got "walking across a rope or something" from "swimming in a maelstrom of elemental chaos, taking it into yourself, and surviving"? The Pool of Elements. (the aura part of that description is a cut and paste error from the pool above it)

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, insofar as the pool of elements is concerned, it may be dangerous, but that does not prevent taking 10.
Disarming a trap is dangerous, but it doesn't threaten or distract the PC.
Negotiating a treaty with demons is dangerous, but it doesn't threaten or distract the PC (unless some demons actually are).
For the most part, if you're not in combat, you can take 10.

The tumbler's shoes allow you to take 10 despite being threatened or distracted.
You're not being threatened or distracted in the first place.

Where bathing in the pool does not allow taking 10: It's not a mundane task, which is the other thing preventing you from taking 10.
Tumbler's shoes do nothing to make a task more mundane.

 

[Milambus]

Are you allowing them to use the same skill multiple times?

For this type of challenge, I would say that one they are only allowed to use one Athletics check as their whole swim through the pool. Or only allow one success with the same skill.