Missing Rules

Oofta

Legend
Everywhere you look there is vagueness or sometimes, contradiction. It's fine. I love that sort of game. However, it does pose problems when discussing RAW.

I agree that vagueness is baked in in to 5E, which for this kind of game I'm a fan of. Even if it does result in thread bloat and arguments that go on forever that at most tables would be resolved in two minutes.

I just don't see that many contradictions. If someone does, maybe they're just overly picky like those click-bait ads "Unbelievable mistakes in movies!" which turn out to be "In one scene the person is holding the glass in their left hand and then in the next it's in their right! How did this happen?". Or maybe it's because the interpretation of the rules is not what the writers intended. Or I'm just too easy on WOTC. :hmm:
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think it's just that more people are accessing forums these days, so debate is more evident. Every group I met using 3e had running debates on rules issues. I love 3e, but previous editions are on the whole less well written than 5e. What's changed is that 5e gives characters far more that they can try and do. This leads to highly varied play at the table, and more places where a ruling is needed. Rules and rulings: that's 5e. But it was always so.

I've been on the web debating D&D since 3e and it really doesn't seem like more are here debating than before. And yes, every group I met in 3e had rules debates, but they were local debates. None of the players in the 3 groups I've played with since 2e go online for rules debates, at least that I know of. I'm the only one who mentions things I've discussed or learned online. I do have one player who will look up character builds and errata online.

I don't think so at all, but where does that phrase come from? Perhaps the context will help us.

It's short hand for the design philosophy of 5e, which is that rules are secondary to the DMs rulings. This link provides some idea of where it come.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...-that-they-favored-rulings-over-rules-in-this
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I agree that vagueness is baked in in to 5E, which for this kind of game I'm a fan of.
My experience of doing homebrew in 3e made me conscious of the holistic nature of the rules in 3e, and now in 5e. I believe that much that seems vague is more a result of overlooking context. These are extensive, sophisticated games systems, by veteran designers, and although it may seem that the rules are modular in approach, they are instead holistic.

To understand Jumping requires attention to multiple parts of the rules, which I think might be grokked by considering their absence. Say the text under Special Types of Movement was absent. The "unusually long distance" text under Athletics would be ambiguous: what is usual? Add in then the text under the Jump spell which tells us that "jump distance" must be a value that can be tripled. An ambiguous value cannot be tripled! The holistic context tells us that somewhere, somehow, a player has a definite number for how far they can jump. Consider then the "an effort to overcome a challenge" text under Ability Checks. That connects with the Athletics language that you "attempt", "try" or "struggle". Holistically, the text entails that there are two kinds of jump distance to consider. A usual distance, that can be tripled, and an unusual distance. Again, you can't triple an unusual distance because whatever value you pick, you can pick a value 3x greater and with as much justice call that unusual! Elsewhere, Second-Story Work tells us "when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier". Again, this helps define the difference between usual and unusual distance, because it is meaningless to add Dex modifier to a distance which is an arbitrarily picked value. When choosing between an interpretation that renders some rules meaningless, and another that gives meaning to all rules, preference is given to the latter. Once we insert "up to your Strength score" as usual, the whole system works. The mechanic can really only be said to be vague when we can insert an alternative term matching the language, and show that an alternative yet consistent system is yielded. And that is why the Magic Missile text makes sense, of course.

Taken together, the Jump rules are not vague! Knowing what DC to assign to an unusual jump is left to the DM because "For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task". They're not vague, but they intentionally leave choice of DC up to the DM. They do guide to the range for DCs, and in the DMG we're guided further as to what each category should mean given a baseline D&D world. You can see the issue here: rules in 5e can seem vaguer than they are because it's a heck of a job to know the gestalt.
 
Last edited:

clearstream

(He, Him)
It's short hand for the design philosophy of 5e, which is that rules are secondary to the DMs rulings. This link provides some idea of where it come.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...-that-they-favored-rulings-over-rules-in-this
It was alleged that 5e's designers made a specific statement "rulings not rules". Which designer? Where? If the alleged quote turns out to not represent a statement by a 5e designer, then lets look at what they say under Philosophy Behind Rules and Rulings

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/philosophy-behind-rules-and-rulings

Rulings and rules, that seems to be WotC's official position on the subject.
 

Oofta

Legend
My experience of doing homebrew in 3e made me conscious of the holistic nature of the rules in 3e, and now in 5e. I believe that much that seems vague is more a result of overlooking context. These are extensive, sophisticated games systems, by veteran designers, and although it may seem that the rules are modular in approach, they are instead holistic.

To understand Jumping requires attention to multiple parts of the rules, which I think might be grokked by considering their absence. Say the text under Special Types of Movement was absent. The "unusually long distance" text under Athletics would be ambiguous: what is usual? Add in then the text under the Jump spell which tells us that "jump distance" must be a value that can be tripled. An ambiguous value cannot be tripled! The holistic context tells us that somewhere, somehow, a player has a definite number for how far they can jump. Consider then the "an effort to overcome a challenge" text under Ability Checks. That connects with the Athletics language that you "attempt", "try" or "struggle". Holistically, the text entails that there are two kinds of jump distance to consider. A usual distance, that can be tripled, and an unusual distance. Again, you can't triple an unusual distance because whatever value you pick, you can pick a value 3x greater and with as much justice call that unusual! Elsewhere, Second-Story Work tells us "when you make a running jump, the distance you cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier". Again, this helps define the difference between usual and unusual distance, because it is meaningless to add Dex modifier to a distance which is an arbitrarily picked value. When choosing between an interpretation that renders some rules meaningless, and another that gives meaning to all rules, preference is given to the latter. Once we insert "up to your Strength score" as usual, the whole system works. The mechanic can really only be said to be vague when we can insert an alternative term matching the language, and show that an alternative yet consistent system is yielded. And that is why the Magic Missile text makes sense, of course.

Taken together, the Jump rules are not vague! Knowing what DC to assign to an unusual jump is left to the DM because "For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task". They're not vague, but they intentionally leave choice of DC up to the DM. They do guide to the range for DCs, and in the DMG we're guided further as to what each category should mean given a baseline D&D world. You can see the issue here: rules in 5e can seem vaguer than they are because it's a heck of a job to know the gestalt.

The context in the text is not a sufficient explanation, of course, because every player of a game brings additional filters in the form of their understanding of language, culture, logic and so on. It is the joint context, textual rules and internal filters, that tells us what we think it all means. The authors of 5e, in using natural language, are acknowledging that internal factor, sited in the player, and that they cannot control it because it arises from education, culture, etc, etc. They say that they want to provide a foundation - something solid to guide players as to what, with their expert experience and craftsmanship, is going to work well at the table. Frequently, they get that right :)

I agree. I wish I had made a note about a podcast I listened to a while back from Mr Crawford. One of the things he discussed were the stealth rules where he explained that at one point they had detailed instructions on how to handle hiding and stealth. All written up, ready to go.

They decided to toss them for the rules we have now because they preferred DM discretion and leaving it up to individual groups how to handle it. So what it means to be sufficiently distracted and "clearly seen" are not explicitly spelled out. It's left up to the group.

So that's what I mean by vague, and is my understanding of rulings over rules. There are certainly gaps in the rules and the DM has to make a lot of judgement calls. I only see endless arguments about that on the forums, not in real life.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I agree. I wish I had made a note about a podcast I listened to a while back from Mr Crawford. One of the things he discussed were the stealth rules where he explained that at one point they had detailed instructions on how to handle hiding and stealth. All written up, ready to go.

They decided to toss them for the rules we have now because they preferred DM discretion and leaving it up to individual groups how to handle it. So what it means to be sufficiently distracted and "clearly seen" are not explicitly spelled out. It's left up to the group.

So that's what I mean by vague, and is my understanding of rulings over rules. There are certainly gaps in the rules and the DM has to make a lot of judgement calls. I only see endless arguments about that on the forums, not in real life.
I see what you mean. For sure they deliberately left gaps that call for judgement calls. Possibly also they didn't want to commit to text, rules that they were not very confident was adding value to the game. I suspect that in some cases - especially around the vision mechanics - they just didn't have anything they felt was robust enough to say "do it this way". That is, I think they consciously applied a quality-control check to the rules they decided to include.

Visions rules.... *sigh* now there really is an area I wish they'd done more of the work for DMs!
 

Sadras

Legend
There are certainly gaps in the rules and the DM has to make a lot of judgement calls. I only see endless arguments about that on the forums, not in real life.

That is my experience at our table. The game feels quick and intuitive as opposed to say 3.x which saw game time wasted at my table while rules were looked up or our found myself in endless discussions with our resident rules lawyer.
 



Oofta

Legend
OMG! You're one of them apologists secretly on WotC's payroll, aren't ya?

Well, you'll never convince me the game I enjoy is just fine!

D'oh! You found me out. Now I'm going to have to switch over to my other account NotAWotcStooge. That'll fool everyone.
 

Remove ads

Top