Missing Rules

[Jester David]

I like the perspective from jumping into difficult terrain, but you sidestepped the larger question: why are rules system defined crafting etc set DCs generally considered more appropriate than random jumping DCs?

The crafting DCs exist for a different purpose. People were having trouble knowing what they could use tools to make or how they could be used in play. This was added in response to fan feedback and requests.
You'll also notice those DCs are suggested DCs, not hard rules. The DM is perfectly free to ignore those depending on the situation.

Hard DCs for skills are difficult because of the infinite variables.
For example, how hard should it be to jump 1 foot further?
What's the DC to jump an extra foot when leaping from a solid surface to a platform slightly lower with lots of rough rocks as handholds and the wind blowing hard from behind?
How about a jump of the same distance on loose soil against the wind?
What if you're running on a rotting pier covered in water with the waves pounding against the dock and the target being a rocking ship?

Plus, there's a general philosophy in the game that if the DM needs to stop and flip through a rulebook to find out how to calculate a DC the ruleset has failed. The DM is empowered to just make that up, deciding what feels dramatic and appropriate for that session at that moment.

It's the advantage of every single D&D game being refereed by a thinking, sentient being who is largely innately aware of the relevant variables at play and how much of an impact they should have.

 

[Charlaquin]

So here's a general question for all the "you don't need benchmarks" folks in this thread: for those thing for which the rules do provide set DCs -- I am looking at things like the tool proficiency stuff in Xanathar's -- how do you square that? Is there a reason it is okay for that stuff to have defined DCs as opposed to DM gut checks?

I agree with Isireth about the XgtE tool uses. Each of those specific tool uses has an implied goal and approach, so I’m not really bothered by them having specific DCs recommended. As for the revised downtime rules in XgtE, I think they’re far worse than the core PHB and DMG downtime rules and I don’t use them.

 

[ad_hoc]

Interesting. I feel the opposite way. If there is no dramatic tension then there is really no reason to not just assume success, IMO. If the characters take a week off from the dungeon to recover and engage in downtime activities, making them roll for those activities seems counter productive.

I think it depends on what they are attempting.

Are we talking about the activities in Xanathar's?

I don't think the PCs should be able to - know any thing they want, acquire as many allies as they want, pick out and buy any amount of magic items they want, etc.

At the same time, I think presenting an opportunity for a chance to partially do those things is a fun thing to do in downtime.

 

[smbakeresq]

There is no DC. The attempted action simply fails outright, no roll. Only a Str 30 creature can do this.

I don’t agree. What if you have a raging barbarian (advantage on STR checks like athletics) with a ATH skill of +10 or more? If they want to try let them. I don’t want to cap them by saying only 30 STR need apply.

Or an enlarged human (12’ tall) would have a 6’ stride, a standing jump of 15 wouldn’t be that hard.

The DC is feet attempted to be jumped, doubled for standing jumps. It’s just simpler

 

[Reynard]

The DC is feet attempted to be jumped, doubled for standing jumps. It’s just simpler

The problem with this particular solution is that it introduces a degree of uncertainty that is unnecessary and potentially problematic. Like, should there be a chance for a 20 strength raging barbarian to fail a 7 foot running long jump? Probably not. But that's just different perspectives on what the likelihood of success should be. I do agree that it should not be impossible for characters to exceed their strength in running jump distance.

 

[iserith]

I don’t agree. What if you have a raging barbarian (advantage on STR checks like athletics) with a ATH skill of +10 or more?

He or she'll be pretty great at grappling and shoving then or at tasks for which Strength (Athletics) is used to resolve any uncertainty as to the outcome. If he or she wants to be better at jumping higher or further, then he or she can quest after boots of striding and springing. Or the ranger or wizard can cast jump on the barbarian.

Your method is very D&D 4e. I prefer to use the D&D 5e rules here and treat jumping as a factor of speed and Strength rather than mandate an ability check.

 

[smbakeresq]

He can’t fail a jump. A 1 is not an automatic failure unless there is a penalty for failure. Therefore there is no chance of him failing 7’ running long jump.

So it’s your roll plus your athletics score is your minimum, any athletics proficient PC will have a 3‘ minimum jump.

As a DM you have to watch how you draw terrain, if you draw a 1’ wide ledge into a 5’ space the the pc can just move from the ledge into the next 5’ space just by taking a step.

 

[Reynard]

I prefer to use the D&D 5e rules here and treat jumping as a factor of speed and Strength rather than mandate an ability check.

Except the rule that says you can make an Athletics check to jump an unusually long distance.

More seriously, you mention speed and at first I was like "speed doesn't affect jumping distance" but in a way it does. If you have a 20 strength, in order to make that jump you must have a speed of at least 30.

 

[iserith]

Except the rule that says you can make an Athletics check to jump an unusually long distance.

As I've explained, a player can make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump an unusually long distance IF:

1. What the player described affords the character a chance to do that;
2. The DM thinks what the player described has an uncertain outcome;
3. The DM thinks what the player described has a meaningful consequence of failure.

If the player has described nothing more than what can otherwise be construed as the typical approach for jumping, then the attempt to jump further or higher simply fails, no roll - the character only jumps to the limits of his or her Strength and speed. The player can't just declare he or she is making an Athletics check to jump further. The DM is under no obligation whatsoever to accept that and, in my view, shouldn't. That's not how the basic conversation of the game and the adjudication process works in D&D 5e. Now, in D&D 4e, players can do that and the DM is encouraged to say "Yes." But that's not a thing in D&D 5e, according to the rules at least.

Now, if the player has some kind of terrain to use (like a springboard) or can otherwise reasonably justify by way of his or her description something that is boosting the jump distance, then sure, ask for that roll if the outcome is not certain and there's a meaningful consequence of failure. "I try to jump farther than normal" is a goal, but it lacks an approach. The next thing the DM should say in my view is "How?" The proper answer isn't "By making an Athletics check..."!

More seriously, you mention speed and at first I was like "speed doesn't affect jumping distance" but in a way it does. If you have a 20 strength, in order to make that jump you must have a speed of at least 30.

Yep. As an aside, the barbarian in my Planescape game, Chungus, has a speed of 40 feet and boots of striding and springing. With Strength 16, he can manage a standing long jump of 24 feet or a running long jump of 30 feet. Since I am big on setting up interesting terrain, this comes in very handy indeed as has been shown in recent adventurers where they are climbing the Infinite Staircase, which is all platforms and stairs.

 

[smbakeresq]

I also give a bonus to jump distance if you are running base on speed. This is to help the super fast monks with low strength scores to give them a bonus for their velocity in the vector of movement.