Missing Rules

[jasper]

This thread’s conversation has some similarity to the very large “DC 30...and 35?” thread I started a few years back that was eaten up by the last big board reboot.

Just a few quick thoughts.

1) I don’t have my books with me and I haven’t run 5e for a few years, but the jumping rules seem abundantly clear:

a- A character’s STR is the floor for their long jump in feet.

b- An Ability Check decides the ceiling for a character’s long jump (which cannot be less than their floor).

2) A 19 year old nearly jumped 29 feet last year (without the luxury of being in their physical prime nor world class training). He did this through physical ability and honed technique, the latter of which being crucial (in the same way it is for a trained swordsman). He could trivially and routinely clear 20 feet.

3) The world of D&D appears to have lines of evidence to support either less than earth’s gravity and/or atmospheric friction (at least situationally!).

4) We don’t ask for martial heroes’ approach when they are engaging in amelee exchange in mortal combat (which would involve the technical aspects of martial arts well-beyond the overwhelming percentage of players’ knowledge-base).

5) Why, given 1-4 above, do we need further information on how a martial hero is performing their noncombat archetypal shtick; in this case the technical information about how a martial hero in arbitrarily-relaxed (or weird) physics D&Dland performs a long jump beyond what would be trivial for them (those sorts of jumps which are trivial to earth athletes who couldn’t survive more than a moment in martial combat with most of the mythical D&D creatures)?

hmmm boycubkitten does have a point but. To be snarky.
1. No problem.
2. How dare bring the real world into this. When you can get a job in Slapout Alabama as the official Dragon pooper scooper get back with me.
3. Mom mom mom mom mom manbearcat "is getting science in my Fantasy" two great themes which don't go together.
4. true.
5. True.
How about just doing
1.
1) a- A character’s STR is the floor for their long jump in feet.

b- An Ability Check decides the ceiling for a character’s long jump (which cannot be less than their floor).
2.We don’t ask info which would involve the technical aspects of martial arts/spell slinging well-beyond the overwhelming percentage of players’ knowledge-base.
3. Why in great owlbear droppings are dms asking how the pc clears the extra feet over floor?

 

[Maxperson]

I read a commitment to providing a solid rules foundation, with an acknowledgement that imagination is boundless. Authorising the DM to make rulings when the action goes outside the scope of the rules is pragmatism: it helps play at the table.

I read that their goal is to provide "rules the DM could build on" and that the DM is a "bridge between the things the rules address and things they don't". The rules address some things. Those things that they address lay a solid foundation. The Philosophy calls out that 5e contains rules that are not yet clear enough. A need for rulings does not entail that rulings are superior to rules.

It is fair to say that we haven't yet found evidence that a 5e designer said or wrote the exact words "rulings not rules", right? The section is titled rulings and rules. Use both.

Ruling OVER rules, not rulings NOT rules. There's a major difference there. You're also overlooking the DMG.

Page 4: "And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them."

Page 4: "The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM and you are in charge of the game."

The rules are clearly secondary to the DM and what he decides to rule.

 

[clearstream]

Ruling OVER rules, not rulings NOT rules. There's a major difference there. You're also overlooking the DMG.

Page 4: "And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them."

Page 4: "The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM and you are in charge of the game."

The rules are clearly secondary to the DM and what he decides to rule.

It feels like you might be arguing that all D&D rules are ultimately vague because DMs can make rulings on them. To me, no part of what we have cited has stated or even implied such a hierarchy. The rules attempt to be concrete and clear and the DM is expressly authorised to arbitrate upon or alter them as needed. The one does not diminish the other.

Meaning arises in context, and I think we must acknowledge our differing contexts. So far as I can tell, you value keeping the rules as vague as possible - maybe you don't like being bound by them - so you take the words and interpret them for vagueness. I value the rules as the work of expert game designers given time and resources that I don't have - I don't mind being bound by them - so I take their words and interpret them for clarity.

Which is right? I think for me, I come back to the artifacts themselves: the rulebooks. If all rules are vague, then are all rules in the rulebooks empty of meaning? I suppose we would both resist that point of view. So chances are, we accept that rules do have meaning, with you saying that any such meanings are further down in some kind of hierarchy than DMs rulings. I don't think that can really be true, because the commonality across D&D DMs is the D&D RAW. There is more that is similar, than that is different. So I would invert your hierarchy and say, if anything, rules stand above rulings... but accommodate and facilitate them, not prevent them.

 

[5ekyu]

Wow I guess my use of 4e rule of DC=feet jumped didn’t cut the mustard for ease of use or playability.

20 pages didn’t convince me to use something else either.

did not make my cut...

18 str... jumps 18 ft easily automatically
18 str jumps 20 ft DC 20 check aka HARD


8 str jumps 8 ft easily.automatically
8 str jumps 10' DC10 check aka easy

Even if we assume tier-2, proficiency for the str18 only (no prof for the str 8 guy) the odds then become
18 to 20' on str 18 guy with proficiency = roll 13+ on die to make the 20 needed.
8 to 10 on str 8 non proficient guy - roll11+ on the die to make the 10 needed

Simply put, not a result i would like to try and sell as reasonable at my table.

if it works at yours, great!

 

[Oofta]

I think I'd go with a percentage above what you can normally do. If you're already jumping 20 feet every time without fail, jumping 25 feet most of the time. It's a 20% increase. But a person that can normally only jump 10 feet jumping 15 feet is looking at a 50% increase.

I'd also make it an athletics check instead of strength to reflect training.

 

[Hriston]

I don't set DCs based on the abilities of the character. If a situation includes a gap to be jumped, for example, that's unusually far for some characters such that they need to make a STR (Athletics) check to clear the span, the DC would be the same for each person making the attempt.

I see the designations, easy, medium, hard, etc., to refer to the difficulty for the average person, not the difficulty for the individual making the check.

 

[Reynard]

I don't set DCs based on the abilities of the character. If a situation includes a gap to be jumped, for example, that's unusually far for some characters such that they need to make a STR (Athletics) check to clear the span, the DC would be the same for each person making the attempt.

I see the designations, easy, medium, hard, etc., to refer to the difficulty for the average person, not the difficulty for the individual making the check.

This is why I prefer to have benchmarks built into the system.

 

[clearstream]

18 str... jumps 18 ft easily automatically
18 str jumps 20 ft DC 20 check aka HARD

Assuming Tier 2 Athletics, clears 20' in 8 out of 20 attempts. Never fails to clear 10'.

8 str jumps 8 ft easily automatically
8 str jumps 10' DC 10 check aka easy

Assuming Tier 2 Athletics, clears 10' in 13 out of 20 attempts. Clears 20' in only 3 out of 20 attempts.

Given a constant mass, the energy to jump 20' is much more than that needed to jump 10'. The margin between the two results, considered in number of successes, is about +62%. I don't think it is the intent of the Difficulty Class system to scale difficulty by who attempts it. I think you are focusing on +2' (i.e. relative to person attempting), where I believe the system expects you to focus on the total distance covered.

For me, to have a mechanic that easy to remember and fast to use, that produces decent results, sells itself.

 

[Oofta]

Assuming Tier 2 Athletics, clears 20' in 8 out of 20 attempts. Never fails to clear 10'.


Assuming Tier 2 Athletics, clears 10' in 13 out of 20 attempts. Clears 20' in only 3 out of 20 attempts.

Given a constant mass, the energy to jump 20' is much more than that needed to jump 10'. The margin between the two results, considered in number of successes, is about +62%. I don't think it is the intent of the Difficulty Class system to scale difficulty by who attempts it. I think you are focusing on +2' (i.e. relative to person attempting), where I believe the system expects you to focus on the total distance covered.

For me, to have a mechanic that easy to remember and fast to use, that produces decent results, sells itself.

i can see arguments both ways - I prefer percentage, but if you you have a higher strength you're already more likely to succeed anyway.

I'll probably just making something up that makes sense at the time if it ever comes up in my game. Especially since I'll have changed my mind on how I want to handle it by suppertime.

I also like the idea of partial failure for this kind of stuff because it's so common in shows to have them almost make it only to end up barely hanging on. Especially if they're the second person to jump after the bad guy and they're going to die if their partner doesn't help them up because the bad guy has temporary plot armor.

 

[smbakeresq]

did not make my cut...

18 str... jumps 18 ft easily automatically
18 str jumps 20 ft DC 20 check aka HARD


8 str jumps 8 ft easily.automatically
8 str jumps 10' DC10 check aka easy

Even if we assume tier-2, proficiency for the str18 only (no prof for the str 8 guy) the odds then become
18 to 20' on str 18 guy with proficiency = roll 13+ on die to make the 20 needed.
8 to 10 on str 8 non proficient guy - roll11+ on the die to make the 10 needed

Simply put, not a result i would like to try and sell as reasonable at my table.

if it works at yours, great!

IMO its just absurd that 18' jump has no chance of failure whatsoever and can always be done but 20' is a DC 20 which is %60 chance of failure (8th level to get to 20 Str and then +3 proficiency IIRC.) Every inch is %2.5 chance of failure, that scales way to fast.

You shouldn't be able to guarantee an 18' jump either because you are strong with an 18 Str. With encumbrance rules (which almost no one uses) you are better off grabbing another PC and making the jump with them automatically if that's the case. A goliath with 20 strength and his large build trait could probably jump with 3-5 PC's and be guaranteed success using PHB, that just makes no sense.


Unless of course I wasn't clear, i.e. there are NO automatic jumps, every jump requires a roll unless it is less than your ATH score+1. I hope that is not the case, I thought I said that. At first level 16 str and athletics proficiency (+5 total) means you guaranteed success is only 6 feet, the minimum score. Boots of striding triple the score as usual, and are much more valuable under my system.