Mistakenly Forgoing a Saving Throw

[LokiDR]

If an NPC of any sort says "Accept this spell" and the PC does, there is no save. I used this tatic to geas a whole party.

If there is deception, the PC, and other allies, should be able to make appropriate skill checks. Spot vs disguise, sense motive vs bluff, or even knowledge religion or spellcraft. The PC still has a chance of avoiding the effect, but not the save they thought they were getting.

A poison is a different matter, as mentioned, but the tatic is still good. The PC mind-bender is harder to call. I would break it down to a bluff vs. sense motive.

Just because a harmful spell is cast doesn't mean the target may not forgo their save. But the PC should always have a chance of finding out before it is too late.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That might be what though, DC 5, or 10? Heh, just hope they didn't use int as the 'dump' stat

Doesn't matter - Knowledge skills are Trained Only.

-Hyp.

 

[Derren]

And change self will also cover the symbol.

 

[Al]

Doesn't matter - Knowledge skills are Trained Only.

-Hyp.

I houseruled that really easy Knowledge skill DCs can be defaulted- in the same way that the average (modern day) man on the street knows a bit about (e.g.) the World Wars, or basic maths, or has heard of Dickens, without having to take Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Mathematics) and Knowledge (Literature).

However, in this circumstance, I would say that if the save is foregone, then the save is foregone and automatically fails. The DM does not turn around and say to the PCs that they accidentally did save against Cure Light Wounds, or Bull's Strength, or Haste, as the save has been foregone- similarly, if he is tricked into 'accepting' the spell, he has foregone the save.

As for poisons, probably a Wisdom check. The body may want to retch, but the victim (if foolish) might think that it is the potion itself that merely tastes horrific, but is good in the long run (like some medicines...)

The Charm example is similar to the first one, although the mindbender would probably get an opposed Charisma check in addition to Bluff v Sense Motive. Given the troll's Charisma, it's likely to stay charmed for quite a while.

 

[greycastle]

heres a question in ALL seriousness....

While i understnad perfectly how no.2 and no.3 could be performed "in game" how is no. 1 done?

I mean do you tell the cleric silently or out loud "the priest of Nerull nocked you out, and draggs you into the bushes"...then the next second you say "suddenly Party Priest comes back out and heads towards the Party Fighter and offers to heal you/him/her"

Or is it more that the 'players' have to completely roleplay as their 'characters' in the situation? If this is the case, what would occur if the PLayer refuses to agree to be healed? it's not in character, so how would you rule this?

 

[Hypersmurf]

While i understnad perfectly how no.2 and no.3 could be performed "in game" how is no. 1 done?

It works much better in PbEM

Alternatives:

1. Pass a note.
2. Take the player aside for a few minutes.
3. Trust your other players enough not to metagame.

Or 4. Time the incident to occur at the end of the session, so you can coach the player before the enxt session

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

And where's the problem? I mean, it's a cleric against a puny will save fighter... the clerics disguise should let him come close enough and probably even allow him to catch the fighter flatfooted as surprise action and do you really think the cleric would miss his touch attack against a flatfooted target? Or the fighter would make his will save against that cleric ?

Guess why we had a fighter with WIS 16 last time?

Besides, I would always grant saving throws since the player should notice there is something wrong.

 

[Iku Rex]

Doesn't matter - Knowledge skills are Trained Only.

Special: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, a character only knows common knowledge. -- SRD http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdskillsii.rtf

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This is taking the need for skill points to ludicrous extremes. One may need to speak draconic to know what is being said but one doesn't need to speak it to know that it isn't elvish any more than one needs to speak Spanish to know that it isn't Hebrew. (I don't speak either language but, having known both Hebrew and Spanish speakers, I'd never mistake Hebrew for Spanish).

The fighter in question would need a knowledge religion roll to recognize Tricky Tim's symbol as that of Nerull. He wouldn't need anything more than a 3 int to tell that it wasn't the symbol of Pelor. . . . well, actually, he'd need a fairly difficult Spot Check since Tricky Tim probably used Change Self to make his symbol of Nerull look like a symbol of Pelor (he's tricky after all) but that's not the point.

Assuming he has ranks in Knowledge (Religion). The fighter's lack of skill points and class skills strikes again!

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

LokiDR-Are you joking? Geas has no save in the first place