Modifying Cleric to be more like Wizard

There are several problems.

First, you'll need to just get rid of the D&D wizard. The D&D wizard has no real historical basis. The vast majority of wizards of antiquity or myth are just variant clerics or shamans of some sort or the other. This is because the D&D wizard has been largely shorn of all of the occult trappings that come with real world magical traditions - and this is probably a good thing.

Once you've gotten rid of the D&D wizard, then you are free to use the cleric to take up the role of the D&D wizard as robe-wearing scholar and master of magic and divorce the cleric from the role of warrior of god that offends you. Indeed, you are free to use the cleric class to emulate every single spell-casting tradition. Cleric does a much better job of function as witch, theurgist, Hermeticist, cabalist, animist, diabolist, and so forth than the D&D wizard with its roots in 20th century popular fiction and parapsychology (which is simply magic shorn of its occult roots and given a pseudo-scientific gloss). There are vastly more sources of clerics out there than wizards, at least until we start hitting the mid 20th century. Indeed, it could be argued that the D&D wizard outright created the modern fantasy wizard, as prior to D&D wizards were just a whole lot more subtle, tended to be more occultist than scientist, and so forth.

The other real sticking point has creating some sort of robe wearing scholarly priest, other than the fact you were replicating a wizard, has always been multi-classing. In most editions of the game going back to 1e, if you were to take away the clerics weapon and armor proficiency, there would be all too easy ways to get them back by minimally investing in some other class. For example, in 1e had you pulled the weapon and armor proficiencies from cleric, I would have made a human 1st level fighter, then when I hit second level, I would have dual classed into your robe wearing cleric, and in very short order I would have created the armored war priest you don't want with all the full benefits of your scholarly cleric on top of it. In 3e, if you created a divine caster with better than cleric casting ability by limited armor wearing capability, it was easy to buy back the armor via multicasting or feats. And to stop that you have to in most editions give the cleric the wizards, "Can't cast while wearing armor" restrictions, which again goes back to the fact that an unarmored, scholarly cleric, is really just a wizard with a different name.

Ultimately, I've never found this necessary. Most clerics in my game world that are more than about 2nd level tend to be venerable 70 year old men or women with no physical stats above 7, and who consequently don't wear armor because they'd be crushed to the floor by 60 lbs of steel on their shoulders. Also they tend to live mostly in very large cities defended by layers of civic institutions, guards, and fortifications, meaning that most of the time their duties have absolutely nothing to do with gearing up like soldiers and wandering around like a bunch of clanking heavy infantry. Clerics that dress like soldiers are exceptions to the general rule that clerics are generally wearing robes and elaborate costumes, and more known by their power than their battle prowess. But I see no reason why the PC clerics can't wear whatever they like. Very few PC adventurers of any class in my game end up wearing heavy armor except when about to fight in a mass combat, simply because plate mail isn't very well suited to environmental rigors, extremes of the elements, rough and uneven terrain, bogs and marshes, ocean journeys, traversing glaciers, climbing up mountains and all the other things that adventurers do. A few extra points of AC are generally not worth the hassle, unless you know you'll spend the whole combat on basically flat field that two armies have met to contend and your are mounted on steed the whole time.

And if you are a cleric going to participate in that, why not use whatever armor is available in your culture?
 
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There are several problems.

First, you'll need to just get rid of the D&D wizard. The D&D wizard has no real historical basis. The vast majority of wizards of antiquity or myth are just variant clerics or shamans of some sort or the other. This is because the D&D wizard has been largely shorn of all of the occult trappings that come with real world magical traditions - and this is probably a good thing.

Once you've gotten rid of the D&D wizard, then you are free to use the cleric to take up the role of the D&D wizard as robe-wearing scholar and master of magic and divorce the cleric from the role of warrior of god that offends you. Indeed, you are free to use the cleric class to emulate every single spell-casting tradition. Cleric does a much better job of function as witch, theurgist, Hermeticist, cabalist, animist, diabolist, and so forth than the D&D wizard with its roots in 20th century popular fiction and parapsychology (which is simply magic shorn of its occult roots and given a pseudo-scientific gloss). There are vastly more sources of clerics out there than wizards, at least until we start hitting the mid 20th century. Indeed, it could be argued that the D&D wizard outright created the modern fantasy wizard, as prior to D&D wizards were just a whole lot more subtle, tended to be more occultist than scientist, and so forth.

The other real sticking point has creating some sort of robe wearing scholarly priest, other than the fact you were replicating a wizard, has always been multi-classing. In most editions of the game going back to 1e, if you were to take away the clerics weapon and armor proficiency, there would be all too easy ways to get them back by minimally investing in some other class. For example, in 1e had you pulled the weapon and armor proficiencies from cleric, I would have made a human 1st level fighter, then when I hit second level, I would have dual classed into your robe wearing cleric, and in very short order I would have created the armored war priest you don't want with all the full benefits of your scholarly cleric on top of it. In 3e, if you created a divine caster with better than cleric casting ability by limited armor wearing capability, it was easy to buy back the armor via multicasting or feats. And to stop that you have to in most editions give the cleric the wizards, "Can't cast while wearing armor" restrictions, which again goes back to the fact that an unarmored, scholarly cleric, is really just a wizard with a different name.

Ultimately, I've never found this necessary. Most clerics in my game world that are more than about 2nd level tend to be venerable 70 year old men or women with no physical stats above 7, and who consequently don't wear armor because they'd be crushed to the floor by 60 lbs of steel on their shoulders. Also they tend to live mostly in very large cities defended by layers of civic institutions, guards, and fortifications, meaning that most of the time their duties have absolutely nothing to do with gearing up like soldiers and wandering around like a bunch of clanking heavy infantry. Clerics that dress like soldiers are exceptions to the general rule that clerics are generally wearing robes and elaborate costumes, and more known by their power than their battle prowess. But I see no reason why the PC clerics can't wear whatever they like. Very few PC adventurers of any class in my game end up wearing heavy armor except when about to fight in a mass combat, simply because plate mail isn't very well suited to environmental rigors, extremes of the elements, rough and uneven terrain, bogs and marshes, ocean journeys, traversing glaciers, climbing up mountains and all the other things that adventurers do. A few extra points of AC are generally not worth the hassle, unless you know you'll spend the whole combat on basically flat field that two armies have met to contend and your are mounted on steed the whole time.

And if you are a cleric going to participate in that, why not use whatever armor is available in your culture?

Interesting essay despite the lack of salient points. There is no need to remove the wizard. A robed cleric isn't "replicating a wizard" any more than a paladin is replicating a fighter. They are different class concepts with different abilities and different spells. Also, giving up a level of spellcasting in your primary class to get armor feats isn't that insignificant an investment to make.
 

A robed cleric isn't "replicating a wizard" any more than a paladin is replicating a fighter. They are different class concepts with different abilities...

Well, once you move cleric firmly into robe wearing spell-casting scholar, that is not at all clear. I mean your own freaking title of this thread is "Modifying Cleric to be more like Wizard". So yeah, forgive me for thinking you are going to make the overlap between the classes even greater than it already is. Is an adept of a temple of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn a D&D cleric or a D&D wizard? Keep in mind that Gygax used esoteric real world texts like that when trying to decide what powers a wizard should have.

...and different spells.

The different and generally superior spells that a Wizard had access too were largely justified on the basis of the fact that the wizard was giving up arms, weapons, and hit-points relative to the Cleric in order to be a Wizard. But if your cleric is also giving up arms, weapons, and hit-points then to be balanced the scholarly cleric tends acquire spell-casting ability on par with a Wizard. You very quickly run into situations where either your Wizard is just a Scholarly Priest without healing magic, or your Scholarly Priest is just a gimped Wizard.

Also, giving up a level of spellcasting in your primary class to get armor feats isn't that insignificant an investment to make.

That depends on whether the class which was balanced with the cleric by giving up its arms, armor, combat ability, and hit points was balanced such that in terms of spell-casting the Scholarly Priest of level N-1 was not as capable or nearly as capable in spell-casting as a Cleric of level N. And there are generally ways around that anyway, allowing you to pick up the lost spell-casting level in part or completely.

Or as css put it, "I could've sworn you'd replied about how you're against gimping yourself..." When a cleric gives up a significant fraction of what makes it balanced with a wizard, it better get a large share of what makes a wizard powerful, or your class is going to suck.
 
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Well, once you move cleric firmly into robe wearing spell-casting scholar, that is not at all clear. I mean your own freaking title of this thread is "Modifying Cleric to be more like Wizard". So yeah, forgive me for thinking you are going to make the overlap between the classes even greater than it already is. Is an adept of a temple of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn a D&D cleric or a D&D wizard? Keep in mind that Gygax used esoteric real world texts like that when trying to decide what powers a wizard should have.

The different and generally superior spells that a Wizard had access too were largely justified on the basis of the fact that the wizard was giving up arms, weapons, and hit-points relative to the Cleric in order to be a Wizard. But if your cleric is also giving up arms, weapons, and hit-points then to be balanced the scholarly cleric tends acquire spell-casting ability on par with a Wizard. You very quickly run into situations where either your Wizard is just a Scholarly Priest without healing magic, or your Scholarly Priest is just a gimped Wizard.

They have separate roles in the party, so, no, it's not as easy to run into that situation as you're implying here. Compensating clerics for weaker frontline abilities also isn't as difficult as you're implying it is; it's just a matter of figuring out what works best.

Look, forgive my bluntness, but this is at the very least the 2nd time I've seen you try to turn a thread into an insufferably pedantic and unproductive over-analysis with obfuscation of a relatively simple and obvious issue. I'm not going to go down that road with you again. Why is it, exactly, that you come to the homebrew and house rule forum to argue against homebrewing and houseruling?
 


Look, forgive my bluntness...

Sure. Bluntness is always forgiven.

Why is it, exactly, that you come to the homebrew and house rule forum to argue against homebrewing and house ruling?

Because, to be blunt about it, most of the people that come into this forum are terrible rule-smiths with ill-thought out ideas, and in particular they have a habit of thinking that some issue or the other is relatively simple and obvious and are completely mystified why no one has done this thing that seem completely simple and obvious to them, when in fact the problem is that it is not simple or obvious at all.

By all means, draft your fantasy heartbreaker if that is what you want to do. I suggest going all out with wound levels instead of hit points, extensive critical hit tables, skill based instead of classless, a bunch of extra ability scores, mixing up what the ability scores are for, called shots, armor as DR, extensive critical hit tables, spell points instead of spell slots, and unified spellcasting because clerics are stupid. Oh, and no elves. Just get it all out of your system at once.

Seriously, do you know how many times I've listened to some variation on, "This has always been a slight pet peeve of mind about D&D - that the standard cleric is an armor clad warpriest rather than the more common and anachronistically appropriate scholarly theologian."? So I tried to get you to question your assumptions, and maybe think of "other media" as something other than Warcraft and other things directly inspired by D&D in the first place.

To be blunt, you are a 94 post noob with very limited experience, little or no sign you've played many RPGs other than D&D (and that only recent versions), and you read like a high school rules smith from the early 1990's that has time traveled two decades into the future with zero awareness of the last 25 years. I don't dislike you, because believe me, I've had all the exact same thoughts you've voiced over the last few weeks at one time or the other, but I do find you excessively naive regarding reengineering D&D. By all means, ask questions, voice ideas, just don't be surprised if I'm ultimately not the only one going... "Do you realize how many times we've seen these threads, and how many times any novel and workable idea has come out of them?"
 

I'm sorry, but it seems Celebrim has some valid points. You're basically asking for a "white mage" class. You could flavor the class differently and such, but mechanically would be very similar.

That being said, have looked at the 'Cloistered Cleric' from 3.5. IIRC that option seemed to do what you suggest and it may be possible to update to 5 without too much trouble. Or at the very least used as a template for a similar build in 5.0.
 

This has always been a slight pet peeve of mind about D&D - that the standard cleric is an armor clad warpriest rather than the more common and anachronistically appropriate scholarly theologian. It annoys me that they always just push the former rather than at least finding a way to bake the choice into the class.

Has anyone done any variants to mirror the robed priest archetype so common in other media? I have a few ideas but I'd like to get others' input before I present them.

Thinking about a minimal-impact house rule... How about just adding this custom spell to the Cleric's spell list?

Holy Armor
1st-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a piece of cured leather)
Duration: 8 hours
If you aren't wearing armor, a protective magical force surrounds you until the spell ends.
You have two options when casting this spell.
As a basic option, you are surrounded with a holy protective aura, and your base AC becomes 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
As a more potent option, your base AC becomes 16 + your Dexterity modifier, but the stronger aura radiates a soft light (as a candle) and you suffer disadvantage on Stealth checks.
The spell ends if the target dons armor or if you dismiss the spell as an action.

This is basically a re-skinned Mage Armor for Clerics, except that (1) it's self-target only, and (2) it replicates Chain Shirt (as Mage Armor) or Chain Mail including the Stealth disadvantage.

Optionally you can also let the spell be a Ritual if you don't want the Cleric to waste a daily slot.
 

Has anyone done any variants to mirror the robed priest archetype so common in other media? I have a few ideas but I'd like to get others' input before I present them.
I had a player whose cleric wore robes (light armour) and stayed back and cast spells. He put high stats in WIS, INT, and CHA and tried to avoid the front lines, and roleplayed some wise old kook looking into the founding of his religion.

I guess it was a bit unorthodox (heh) to have a priest not smash an orc's skull, but somehow he made it work despite the restrictions of the class.
 

Heavy (and Medium) armor, mace swinging Clerics always felt like they stepped on the Paladin's toes to me. I think there's room for there to be Robed Clerics in the game.

Back in 2E and 3E, Cleric offensive spells were largely weaker or specifically targeted when compared to Wizard spells. I don't really see that as a thing anymore. A spell is a spell. Spells of the same level seem to be balanced against each other now (case in point, spells used to be different levels for different classes, and that's gone now). Clerics have the same number of base spells as the Wizard; clerics get their channel divinity and wizards get their arcane recovery. Clerics still get more HP and medium armor, while wizards get ... I'm really not sure. Better Ritual Casting? At least they become quite a bit more different starting at level 2 and going forward.
 

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