Monk and Claw/Slam Attacks

[Shin Okada]

From FAQ,

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same -2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at -2/-2 (-5 as secondary weapons, and -2 from the flurry).

I am a little bit confused from this Q&A. Basically, Monk's Unarmed strike is supposed to be doable with any part of monk's body, say, foot, knee, elbow, head-butt, etc. But this answer seems to be assuming that monks are using arms or similar appendages which usually hold weapons, to make unarmed strikes. Does that mean, monk's unarmed strike virtually make one hand "not free"? I mean, when a monster monk has two claw attacks or two slam attacks, he can only use one claw or slam attack in conjunction with unarmed strikes?

Also, if the penalty for natural attacks are "-5 as secondary weapons, and -2 from the flurry", shouldn't hoof attacks be made at +0/+0? The said Centaur Monk's BAB is +7. From where that additional -2 penalty came from?

 

[Runestar]

But this answer seems to be assuming that monks are using arms or similar appendages which usually hold weapons, to make unarmed strikes. Does that mean, monk's unarmed strike virtually make one hand "not free"? I mean, when a monster monk has two claw attacks or two slam attacks, he can only use one claw or slam attack in conjunction with unarmed strikes?

I don't understand where you are getting this interpretation. The FAQ seems quite clear cut to me - make your normal unarmed strike routine, then follow up with all natural weapons as secondary attacks.

Also, if the penalty for natural attacks are "-5 as secondary weapons, and -2 from the flurry", shouldn't hoof attacks be made at +0/+0? The said Centaur Monk's BAB is +7. From where that additional -2 penalty came from?

From flunking in simple arithmetic, it would appear. Your calculations appear to be correct.

 

[Shin Okada]

I don't understand where you are getting this interpretation. The FAQ seems quite clear cut to me - make your normal unarmed strike routine, then follow up with all natural weapons as secondary attacks.

The FAQ is saying "If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks)."

Creatures who uses claws or slams must choose for which purpose it uses each of their arms. For example, a half-dragon human can make 2 claw attacks and a bite attack. But if he uses a one-handed weapon, he can only use weapon attacks plus 1 claw attack and 1 bite attack. And when he uses a two-handed manufactured weapon, he can only use weapon attacks plus 1 bite attack.

If I follow that bolded part, a half-dragon human monk can use one's unarmed strikes plus 1 claw attack and 1 bite attack at best. As he must make unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks.

 

[Runestar]

I am sure it is just awkward phrasing. DnD designers are not really known for their mastery of the english language, so I wouldn't read too much into how they go about wording a particular point.

After all, I could in theory be using boot blades, mouth-picks or hair-blades or something, thereby circumventing the need to use my hands to wield weapons.

 

[Herzog]

No, you're interpreting the answer wrong (IMO).

Yes, you may use any part of your body as part of the flurry of blows.
However, as a centaur monk, using your hooves as part of your flurry is cutting yourself short, since you then won't be able to use that part of your body to make natural attacks.

The answer specifies that, if a creature is normally capable of both attacking with a weapon and attacking with natural weapons as part of one full round action, he will also be able to perform a flurry of blows and attack with his natural weapons as part of a full round action.

If a monster has two slam attacks, but performs a flurry of blows, and the monster entry does NOT specify that the monster can both attack with a slam AND a one handed weapon (which would mean combining natural attacks with weapons) he will also NOT be able to attack with a flurry of blows and a slam attack.

In the event a monster's entry specifies it has a slam attack AND can attack with a one handed weapon as part of the same full round action, it would mean it would be able to make a flurry of blows (if it has the monk class of course) AND have two slam attacks, since it could perform the flurry using it's head, knees, and feet.

 

[Runestar]

and the monster entry does NOT specify that the monster can both attack with a slam AND a one handed weapon (which would mean combining natural attacks with weapons) he will also NOT be able to attack with a flurry of blows and a slam attack.

Why does the entry have to specify this? It would be a default rule, IIRC. For instance, a dire bear can opt to make unarmed strikes followed by claw/claw/bite as secondary attacks, just that this is not used because it is inferior to claw/claw/bite damagewise.

 

[Herzog]

No, unless I'm mistaken, in 3.5 you have either natural attacks or base attack progression.

If you use natural attacks, you can have multiple attacks, like claw/claw/bite. Attack bonus for secondary attacks is at bab-5. (or -2 if you have the appropriate feat, can't remember the name right now)
If you use a weapon (or unarmed strike), you use base attack progression for the number of attacks: full Bab for the first, -5 for the secons, -10 for the third, untill your bab minus bonus is below 1.
You normally cannot combine the two.

(NB: I just checked the MM, and the entry for the centaur seems to treat the weapon attack as the primary, and hooves as secondary attack. Since the bab of a centaur is +4, there is no iterative attack progression. There is no mention of how to handle this when the bab reaches +6, and so the FAQ entry mentioned above seems the only relevant piece of information, proving you right. however, I'll try to find a rule entry to support my own case, and post it here if I find it....)

 

[Shin Okada]

No, unless I'm mistaken, in 3.5 you have either natural attacks or base attack progression.

Actually, the rule is in MM glossary

Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Patryn hasn't been around here for a long time, but we put together the following, should you be interested:

Natural Weapons and Monks