Monk Musings... (not a good reply from WotC)

[RiTz21]

My friend Shai asked this to WotC:

A thri-kreen monk is eligible for Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, and at epic levels, Perfect Multiweapon fighting. If a thri-kreen monk wielding two quarterstaffs with Perfect Multiweapon fighting made a flurry of blows attack using only unarmed strikes, how many hands worth of off-hand attacks would he have? Would it be three hands worth, or all four (since his flurry of blows did not use a hand)?

The reply from WotC is:

Thank you for contact Wizards of the Coast customer service. We are able to help clarify specific questions you may have regarding the rules, but our service does not offer making calculations for you. If a specific entry has not been calculated in one of our books but guidelines are given for how to do it, it is up to the DM and players to determine the appropriate values. We appreciate your understanding in this matter.

To which he replied:

Thank you for your response, but my question had nothing to do with calculations. As I asked in the previous question, a thri-kreen has four arms. Multi-weapon fighting claims that it gives an extra attack with each "off-hand". How many of a thri-kreen monk's limbs are considered "off-hand" if it makes unarmed strikes? Unarmed strikes may be made with legs, so it seems like he still has all four limbs available for "off-hand" attacks. Once again, I am not asking you to calculate anything. I am asking for you to help me interpret the rules. Are there any guidelines for multi-weapon fighting, or as a DM, am I supposed to make my own ruling? I saw nothing in the FAQ or errata regarding this. There are no calculations to be made.

We've not heard from WotC ...

Any insight on this would be appreciated!!

Thanks !
RiTz21

 

[shai-hulud]

I am going to say that four attacks are fine, but I am concerned with the wording of Perfect Multi-Weapon Fighting. A character can make as many off-hand attacks with each limb as he can regular attacks. This seems like it might pose a problem. A Thri-Kreen Ranger 8/monk 11 has a BAB of +16... Using Flurry of Blows, he has a total of six main hand attacks. Giving him six off-hand attacks with each weapon grants him a total of thirty attacks in a single round. I am not sure if I want to allow that!!! (Not that I am planning on taking this campaign epic, but in case I do.

 

[Elephant]

Thirty attacks per round is excessive - just imagine sitting at the table, waiting for another player to roll all those dice!

Then again, pretty much everything slows to a crawl during higher-level combats.

 

[locksmyth]

Using Flurry of Blows, he has a total of six main hand attacks. Giving him six off-hand attacks with each weapon grants him a total of thirty attacks in a single round. I am not sure if I want to allow that!!! (Not that I am planning on taking this campaign epic, but in case I do.

Technically flurry of blows is not main hand attacks. You would only count 'unflurried' attacks.

 

[shai-hulud]

Technically flurry of blows is not main hand attacks. You would only count 'unflurried' attacks.

That is rather regardless. The wording of Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting does not indicate which hand is making the attacks. To quote the SRD, "You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons." So if you make six attacks with a flurry of blows, that is six attacks with your primary weapon. Since with flurry of blows, you can interchange weapons and have it still count as you primary weapon (this gets into the rules for primary and secondary attacks, which are rather complicated), one could even include a Shuriken, which would allow the monk to use Rapid Shot to add an additional attack with his primary weapon. His primary weapon, in this case, would be his flurry of blows. If you are proposing an alternative interpretation, I would have to disagree that it would go against the intent of the Flurry.

I say this because the intent of the Flurry of blows seems to be to allow the monk to make more attacks than a fighter (He gets five attacks per round by 15th level compared to a fighter's four attacks per round at 16th level). This seems to indicate that by design, a monk should receive more attacks per round than a fighter. If we go by that guideline, then an epic monk should have more attacks than an epic fighter. An epic fighter with perfect two-weapon fighting can make eight attacks per round. An epic monk (by your interpretation) would gain no benefit whatsoever from Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (unless he interspersed levels of a class with a good base attack bonus before becoming epic). Therefore, he, too, would have eight attacks per round. This seems counter to the nature of the monk class (which should receive more attacks than a fighter).

So, if you allow all attacks to count for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, a 21st level monk with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting gains five off-hand attacks when making a flurry of blows attack and using Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. Now, a monk that has taken enough levels of a class with a Good Base Attack Bonus progression can make six attacks by the time he reaches 11th level monk. This should allow him the special advantage of making six off-hand attacks (because of his unique class selection).

A thri-kreen, however, takes multi-weapon fighting instead of two-weapon fighting. Perfect Multi-weapon Fighting would be affected in the same way as Two-Weapon Fighting. So, the monk in question instead has either 24 or 30 attacks per round, rather than the 16 he would have as a fighter. (I am ignoring the bite attack for the time being). I am not certain if it is 24 or 30 attacks per round because once again, if he is wielding four weapons and makes only unarmed strikes for his flurry of blows, all four limbs should be available for off-hand attacks.

Now, I am discounting the possibility of using Rapid Shot to gain additional attacks, but a monk with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw may be able to make even more attacks per round (this one is very debatable, though). A monk can throw a shuriken for his first attack, which would allow him to throw another shuriken as a rapid shot. This would give him an extra attack with his primary weapon. Now the wording for Perfect Multiweapon Fighting is such that this would grant him ANOTHER attack with EACH off-hand weapon!!! That one seems like it should be avoided, as it goes against the nature of the feat, but one could definitely argue that because of the wording of the feat, even that attack applies.

 

[Klaus]

Perfect MWF states you have as many attacks with your secondary weapons as with your primary one, at the same *base attack rating*. So features that give you extra attacks with your primary hand are meaningless, only your base attack bonus matters. A thri-kreen Monk 19 (21 HD) has a BAB of +15/+10/+5. So he has 3 attacks with each hand when using Perfect MWF. At 4 hands, that's 12 attacks per round. If he uses Flurry of Blows, he gets two extra attacks at his highest BAB, which can be from any of his eligible weapons (unarmed strikes, or quarterstaff ends -- each end counts as a different weapon) He would be able to make 14 attacks: +15/+15 from the Flurry, +15/+10/+5 with each of the hands.

Full Attack: Melee Flurry of Blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (2d10+Str) and 3 Unarmed Strikes +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5 (2d10+Str)

Regardless, the character only has hopes of hitting anything with his six +15 attacks, since epic ACs tend to be so high.

 

[shai-hulud]

Perfect MWF states you have as many attacks with your secondary weapons as with your primary one, at the same *base attack rating*. So features that give you extra attacks with your primary hand are meaningless, only your base attack bonus matters. A thri-kreen Monk 19 (21 HD) has a BAB of +15/+10/+5. So he has 3 attacks with each hand when using Perfect MWF. At 4 hands, that's 12 attacks per round. If he uses Flurry of Blows, he gets two extra attacks at his highest BAB, which can be from any of his eligible weapons (unarmed strikes, or quarterstaff ends -- each end counts as a different weapon) He would be able to make 14 attacks: +15/+15 from the Flurry, +15/+10/+5 with each of the hands.

Full Attack: Melee Flurry of Blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (2d10+Str) and 3 Unarmed Strikes +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5 (2d10+Str)

Regardless, the character only has hopes of hitting anything with his six +15 attacks, since epic ACs tend to be so high.

I have to disagree with your assessment. How many attacks is he making with his primary weapon? He is making 5 attacks with his primary weapon. How many attacks can he make with his off-hand weapon? It should be 5. What Base Attack Bonus should he use for those five off-hand attacks? It should be the same as his base attack bonus progression used for his primary weapon. I fail te see where he would lose two attacks per arm. Also, if you read the description of flurry of blows, his attacks are made with feet, head, etc. His hands could be full and he could still make unarmed strike attacks. This means that none of his arms have made attacks. ALL of his arms are available as off-hand attacks.

Also, once again, I point out the fact that a monk is designed to have more attacks than a fighter. Limiting a monk's epic attacks to fewer than a fighter defeats the concept of what a monk is supposed to be capable of. A fighter takes many feats to improve his attacks so that more of them would hit at epic levels. That makes all of his attacks effective (even with Perfect Multiweapon Fighting). What is your reason for thinking it otherwise?

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Your interpretation goes against the very design of the monk class. Why would you think that your interpretation was correct? It seems to go against every piece of written material I have read. What am I missing?

Umm some practice in stating your arguments in a polite manner?

 

[shai-hulud]

Umm some practice in stating your arguments in a polite manner?

It was not meant to be impolite. I have edited the post removing the offensive piece of my argument.

 

[Seeten]

I seem to recall monks unarmed strikes not having any off-hands at all.