Monk - what do you like and dislike?

The basis for that is to keep the class meaningful as a distinct class. If its just a Feat system, then the Fighter will be able to outdo the class at its own game (unarmed/light combat). If that's all you want to do, fine- then you don't need a different class. Instead, you'd have a feat like Unarmed Combatant, causing you to lose 1, 2 or 3 armor proficiencies (how many is a design question best not answered at 2:42AM) in exchange for a corresponding number of HTH combat feats. Similarly, its all well and good if you want to design a distinct class that just has a bunch of bonus feats from a limited list...but I think it would lack in flavor, and people would immediately compare it to the Fighter, to the detriment of both classes.

In contrast, a School mechanic keeps the distinct Unarmed Combatant class viable. If you can only get accesss to Special Abilities ¥, ∆ and Ω by having taken School #3, the Bonus Feats of A, B and C, N-ranks in a particular Skill and having taken N-levels in the UC class (or Ninja or Soulknife, etc.), then the class still has a meaning within the context of the game mechanics.
 

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Dannyalcatraz said:
The basis for that is to keep the class meaningful as a distinct class. If its just a Feat system, then the Fighter will be able to outdo the class at its own game (unarmed/light combat). If that's all you want to do, fine- then you don't need a different class.

Well, exactly. I agree. If all the monk class amounts is a hand-to-hand combatant then we don't need a class specifically for it at all. To offer the level of flexibility and customization that folks are looking for in a martial arts system screams "fighter", because flexibility and customization is what that class is all about. To branch unarmed combat off into another subsystem that walks, talks, and quacks like a bunch of feat chains but is called something diifferent to keep it out of the fighter's hands and render it the exclusive province of another base class, all just to achieve some purely aesthetic goal? That's not what I want to hear WotC's design team is doing for 4e.

But fortunately, monks aren't just a bunch of punchers and kickers any more than a ranger is just an archer or two-weapon fighter. Not to put too fine a head on it, a monk is a spiritualist whose disciplines bring body and mind into harmony, allowing him to transcend the limits of both. Running down its list of class features, I see all kinds of abilities that the monk has that are inappropriate for the fighter....evasion, fast movement, diamond body, diamond soul. This stuff has nothing with martial arts per se. I also see a class skill list chock full of skills that have nothing in particular to do with punching people: Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Sense Motive. Of course, a monk needs some unique form of offense, which is where a class-exclusive ability like flurry of blows kicks in (no pun intended).
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
What I dislike so much is that the class only models one archetype of the unarmed/light combatants- the aforemention Shaolin master type. Pankration wrestlers? Capoirists? Thai Kickboxers? Savatte masters? Judo practitioners? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class.

What I dislike so much is that the fighter class only models one archetype of the fighter. Spear master? Swordsman? Archer? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class.

:)

Apologies for the hyperbolic comment, but to be honest, the level of detail in D&D is set at a much lower bar than you are suggesting here. Basically shaolin master, capoirist, kickboxes, savatte all strike unarmed, judo and pankration wrestlers are (presumably) grapplers. They just have different flavour text. Is the flurry of blows a sudden cartwheel attempting two kicks on the bypass (capoirea), two rapid punches (karate) or a knee to the groin and a headbutt (bad-ass brawler)?

In reality swordsmen, spearmen, quarterstaff wielders would use very different tactics and blows but in D&D it is just BAB and damage at the end of the day!

Cheers
 

Regarding the monk class itself:

I like the class; the idea of a spiritually focused unarmed warrior is great, and it fits well into all the settings I've used it in (none of my campaign worlds have been pseudo medieval europe, for instance).

I like the flurry of blows and most of the other class features (I love the slow fall and my monk PC has used it often - although they ought to just say 10ft+10ft per extra level after it comes into play).

I think it ought to have full BAB like the ranger. This puts both of them into the same arena - low AC, lower hit dice, full BAB and thus effective fighters - including early access to certain fighting feats.

I think that the multiclass restriction is stupid and should have gone. So playtesters argued for it? - WotC should have overruled them (at least the second time round!).

I also don't like the 'ki' business. *that* is too oriental and seems out of place since it isn't mentioned anywere else! Just make it magic, the same as all the other magic. At least make an effort to keep it unified rather than out on a metaphysical limb.

Cheers
 

What I dislike so much is that the fighter class only models one archetype of the fighter. Spear master? Swordsman? Archer? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class.

Apologies for the hyperbolic comment, but to be honest, the level of detail in D&D is set at a much lower bar than you are suggesting here. Basically shaolin master, capoirist, kickboxes, savatte all strike unarmed, judo and pankration wrestlers are (presumably) grapplers. They just have different flavour text. Is the flurry of blows a sudden cartwheel attempting two kicks on the bypass (capoirea), two rapid punches (karate) or a knee to the groin and a headbutt (bad-ass brawler)?

Its easy with the current rules to make an archer, spear master etc. With the DCv1, you can even make a polearm specialist feasible. But martial artists are underrepresented.

While you're correct that many martial arts I mentioned are primarily unarmed strikers, each has unique weapon selections and techniques that affect the way the practitioners fight that could be modeled within the game. Its not all fluff and flavor text.

The Shaolin monks did an exhibition at the Bass Hall in Fort Worth recently, and not only did they show off their leaping and unarmed strikes, but they also did some work with weapons, including some bladed polearms (spears & naginata) and other weapons entirely absent from the current monk list.

Capoira and Escrima were designed to be practiced in plain sight as a form of entertainment - hence their designation "hidden." In each case, the practice was to be entertaining to the observer. However, Capoira was designed to be fully usable when the master practitioner was in shackles, even to the point of using the shackles as weapons while still bound, while Escrima actively teaches the art of improvising weapons from everyday objects.

Other martial arts concentrate on chain weapons, disguised weapons, etc. And the Monk class as written (like it though I do) does not model such concepts at all.

(Can you work with your DM to rectify that? Sure...assuming you've got a DM willing to work with you. While I have played with many good DMs over the past 28 years or so, most have been loathe to modify classes to fit a PC concept- you either use the class as written or try something else. As with all things, YMMV.)

The School system could be as simple as having 3 schools: Strikers, Throw/Disarm, and Grapple/Bind/Break...and if you wanted, you could even subsume the Ranger's 2wf and Archery "combat styles" into this system, giving them more options. Each school would have different bonus feat selections, class skills, and special class abilities- say, a cafeteria list of 10 class abilities for each School, and the player gets to choose 1 ability every 5 class levels, virtually insuring no 2 PCs would have the same class abilities.

Those abilities could be completely unique, or they could be as simple as getting additional benefits out of certain feats- like the way that Monks & Rangers can qualify for certain feats without the prerequisites.
 

I never realized that the Asian style tone of the monk was such a serious issue for players and GMs.

It's understandable though.

`Le
 

Weapons that look damn simple are instead exotic because of the monk. Nunchaku are the only one that deserves exotic status.

kama are sickles.

Sai: Blunt dagger with disarming tines would be more than fair at martial.

Shuriken: Only needs the feat for the draw as if ammo rule it has.

Siangham: How does one get any simpler than a pointy stick????!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Felon said:
I am of the opinion that martial arts should be housed entirely within the feat subsystem, rather than attempting to embed it into the monk class. D&D's designers did a sort of half-arsed job by making Improved Unarmed Strike available as a feat, but making the base damage so pathetic that taking monk levels are the only way to make a real go at it.
Because humans, and their natural weapons, are soft and weak. Feet and Fists are inferior to blades and bludgeons, as they should be. Only when magic enters the scene should that ever change And when one person “magics up” his fist and the other one ‘magics up” their sword, both in equal amounts, the one with the sword should win in a straight up battle.
 

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