Monks are Balanced?

[GreyLord]

First, the wizard should not get hit by the monk, and QP requires a successful hit. So something is wrong to start off with.

Next, QP is ineffective if you are immune to critical hits. Why is the wizard not immune? It's not that expensive.

Now, let's examine that DC.

DC = 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis mod = 10 + 8 + Wis mod = 18 + Wis mod
This implies a Wis mod of 17 or a Wisdom of 44.
Assuming they started at 18 and gained 4 from levels, that implies +22 from items.
WBL for 16th level is 260,000. A periapt +6 is 36,000 and a Tome +5 is 137,500, so most of his wealth is gone and he is only 1/2 way there. Hmm...

he does have a Wis of 44 actually. High Dex also.

He has some sort of item that gives him True Strike.

Finally, he seems also to have an object that can cancel any magic on him, and anyone else that basically is like an anti-magic field that he can activate...then his bonus DOES decrease.

Haven't gotten a complete close look at him, it was his first session, but he did one shot the wizard...

Wizard only got one spell off and that was a buff prior to combat, Monk acted before the BBEG or just about anyone else in the combat, slipped past the guards and others and did quivering palm...I couldn't make a Fort 35 roll...killed the BBEG off on the Monks word.

Monk has no bonuses to damage or Armor, spent all his funds basically on raising his stats and defenses from all appearances.

Makes me think that the Monk is more underated than people think most times...unless you expect the Monk is coming and prep specifically for him (which I think is complete CHEESE...need I mention that again, DM's who do that are normally a little unfair and self interested instead of making an interesting game for the players) instead of for the party or taking over the world or whatever the BBEG's plan is...then again, maybe there's a little cheese with the Monk.

whichever, It's made me look over the monk more closely and think that the Monk is actually pretty good as a Mage slayer with the right feats/bonueses/Magic Items taken.

Next favorite is a Rogue doing surprise on the wizard and killing them that way.

Of course Clerics are always fun to take down Wizards also. I could put a Cleric as more effective then a Monk, but might not get through to the Wizard as quickly so have to deal with the rest of an evil BBEG Wizard's party first which can wear down the Cleric a little.

Though perhaps what the problem is, is cheesy DM's that make BBEG's specifically designed to oppose a party and let the BBEG have all the prep time in the world before getting involved in battle? Something I don't do, BBEG may get time to prepare if party has been stupid and he knows exactly that they are coming, otherwise maybe a round prior if he's not surprised by them for one spell...or if surprised, he acts as they act...in which case you have a BBEG Wizard that probably won't get to act prior to the Monk?

At least if the DM makes your Wizard pay the money to write down spells and create items...

If the DM doesn't, then Wizard is kind of allowed an unwritten boost anyways.

Trying to see what about if one is NOT a cheese DM. I absolutely hate cheesed DM's...not fun to game with, not fun to play in a game with...typically. They tend to be the NPC that can do everything that the party can't...meaning they steal the spotlight and do everything and players wonder why they are even there.

Course perhaps the players Monk is cheese instead in this case? Not that I will hold it against him, he's not been disruptive at the table and that's much worse than cheese.

Need to be more prepped next time, but not in a cheesy way with the BBEG. At least he had a moment to shine as a Monk.

 

[GreyLord]

Not really- many defensive spells- and some of the offensive ones- shift the odds greatly in the favor of the casters...and they tend to be on the short lists of most well-played casters. By the time the caster killer gets there, the caster will be prepared to take him on.

For Monks (and Soulknives) to truly be caster killers over the course of their entire progressions, they'd need magic-like ways to buff themselves (for speed, damage output or the like)* or a way to shrug off/dispel magical effects. And even that may not be enough if the caster buffs himself with something like a Polymorph spell.

The problem isn't that the Monk & SK aren't balanced- they are exquisetely so- it's that they are balanced at a level no other classes are, and that their "prey" is on the other side of the power scale.

To put it differently, caster killers are like crocs and casters are like hippos: the killers can get 'em while they're young and inexperienced, but after they come fully into their maturity, the fight is generally one-sided.





* such as can be found for the Soulknife in a PrCl in Hyperconscious which combines their mind blade progression with some PsyWar powers.

Yeah, I didn't have the encounters quite balanced for the new player in this session (first session with the Monk player, supposedly brought it over from another game), but typically love casters specifically for the reasons you list at high level. Love to have high level parties deal with high level casters, normally requires them to use some wit and outside thinking in order to take them down rather than a straight up fight. Didn't quite work out that way this time though...so it surprised me...hence the thread.

Not a big Monk fan myself, haven't seen tons of them in play either, more a Bard and Ranger fan even if they aren't a top tier idea like Wizards or Clerics (though my current character I play is in Pathfinder and is a Cleric of all things), but not adverse to him playing the character. Sort of surprised me at the end of the last game though.

I tend to favor Wizards as BBEG however, and especially Vampires at mid to high, and Liches at higher...but this time only had a typical Wizard (human even) as the BBEG. Maybe I should have gone with a more favored enemy of mine...

 

[kitcik]

he does have a Wis of 44 actually. High Dex also.

He has some sort of item that gives him True Strike.

Finally, he seems also to have an object that can cancel any magic on him, and anyone else that basically is like an anti-magic field that he can activate...then his bonus DOES decrease.

Haven't gotten a complete close look at him, it was his first session, but he did one shot the wizard...

Monk acted before the BBEG or just about anyone else in the combat, slipped past the guards and others and did quivering palm...I couldn't make a Fort 35 roll...killed the BBEG off on the Monks word.

Makes me think that the Monk is more underated than people think most times...

Makes me think he is cheating...

whichever, It's made me look over the monk more closely and think that the Monk is actually pretty good as a Mage slayer with the right feats/bonueses/Magic Items taken.

Next favorite is a Rogue doing surprise on the wizard and killing them that way.

Of course Clerics are always fun to take down Wizards also. I could put a Cleric as more effective then a Monk, but might not get through to the Wizard as quickly so have to deal with the rest of an evil BBEG Wizard's party first which can wear down the Cleric a little.

Makes me think you should work on how you play your NPC casters... if they are falling to monks and rogues but clerics are a lesser issue.

BBEG may get time to prepare if party has been stupid and he knows exactly that they are coming, otherwise maybe a round prior if he's not surprised by them for one spell...or if surprised, he acts as they act...in which case you have a BBEG Wizard that probably won't get to act prior to the Monk?

Do PC wizards walk around unready for combat? No? Then why do NPC/BBEG wizards? That's a big gimp off the bat. I mean, I agree about the cheese part - they shouldn't be using out-of-game knowledge to specifically prepare for the party - but they should be ready for anything. Especially full casters.

Need to be more prepped next time, but not in a cheesy way with the BBEG. At least he had a moment to shine as a Monk.

Well, I always love when a monk succeeds, so I will have to give thumbs up to this!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Stoneskin :: d20srd.org
Polymorph :: d20srd.org

And that's at 8th level.

At 12th, you get:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm

Trust me, I love Monks, and Monk vs Mage is not a fair fight for the guy without the pointy hat, ESPECIALLY one who is in or near his base of operations.

 

[GreyLord]

Stoneskin :: d20srd.org
Polymorph :: d20srd.org

And that's at 8th level.

At 12th, you get:
Contingency :: d20srd.org

Trust me, I love Monks, and Monk vs Mage is not a fair fight for the guy without the pointy hat, ESPECIALLY one who is in or near his base of operations.

All of those are prebuffs though. You have to cast them prior to combat and they have a very short shelf life. Polymorph only last one minute per level, stoneskin lasts longer but unless it's errata'd I don't see it stopping crits. Plus, it still doesn't last all day while you wait for some random adventurers coming to attack you...just in case...and I hardly imagine a Wizard spending all his spell slots on one spell on the off chance of getting adventurers to attack him that day.

Of course, he could create magic items...but even with Polymorph

In addition for the tradeoffs it doesn't absorb enough damage (a sneak attack from a rogue and with a low HP wizard that's the Last spell you'll ever cast).

I'd rather cast a spell such as Irrestistable dance, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Maze, (a personal favorite beyond Prismatics and Illusions which I like would be a Mass Disintegration which someone either found or made up years ago which is like disintegrate, but affects more subjects), or something stronger at first glance of an approaching party (saying that the wizard actually gets a turn to cast a spell, in theory they all have to make an initiative roll which means such a wizard may not get that chance).

As I stated, I HATE cheesy DM's that have all knowing NPC's that have impossible abilities that are practically unbelievable...such as giving them prescience to know exactly when they will get attacked so they can be buffed up completely as the PC's arrive...unless it's the NPC springing the attack in which case being completely buffed up makes sense.

But I'd probably case a more powerful spell initially (what I would consider stronger) that could possibly do a party wipe or serious damage to the party right off the bat than focusing on a single character...especially if it's before the NPC even knows who the actual threats are or not.

Plus, he has the rest of the evil party...who would have thought someone would have made all the saves, slipped past them in one round and achieved a killing blow?

 

[xigbar]

All of those are prebuffs though. You have to cast them prior to combat and they have a very short shelf life. Polymorph only last one minute per level, stoneskin lasts longer but unless it's errata'd I don't see it stopping crits. Plus, it still doesn't last all day while you wait for some random adventurers coming to attack you...just in case...and I hardly imagine a Wizard spending all his spell slots on one spell on the off chance of getting adventurers to attack him that day.

Extend Spell - Feat - D&D Toolshop
Also, Wizards don't have to roll initiative. There are lots of ways for them to get around it.

 

[GreyLord]

Stoneskin :: d20srd.org
Polymorph :: d20srd.org

And that's at 8th level.

At 12th, you get:
Contingency :: d20srd.org

Trust me, I love Monks, and Monk vs Mage is not a fair fight for the guy without the pointy hat, ESPECIALLY one who is in or near his base of operations.

PS: LOVE the contingency spell by the way. I've been banned from using it by the players in fact...but only after they understood if they didn't allow me to use it...they wouldn't be able to use it either.

 

[GreyLord]

Extend Spell - Feat - D&D Toolshop
Also, Wizards don't have to roll initiative. There are lots of ways for them to get around it.

Nice feat...but NOT that effective when waiting around. So you get a Polymorph that lasts a little over half an hour instead of 16 minutes for a 16th level caster. That means you only have to cast 48 of them in a day!!!!

Not to put it down too much...but...I'd say there are MORE effective ways for polymorph than that about any day of the week.

Stoneskin would then last a little over 5 hours, so only need to cast around 5 of them a day, which as I already stated means that the wizard is simply so paranoid he never does anything but expect to be attacked all day and spends all his spell slots on ONE spell!!!????

Kind of defeats the utility and purpose of being a wizard methinks.

For stoneskin, better to simply create a magic item than use all your spell slots if you are that paranoid...IMO of course.

 

[kitcik]

How about one spell before the party gets there: teleport.

To a location where he can buff up and annihilate the party?

It really seems like you don't know much about playing a caster (no offense, neither do i). I mean you have never heard of Contingency? Extend Spell?

Check out Quicken Spell and Persist Spell (24 hour buffs). Check out Abjurant Champion that cast abjurations as swift actions.

There are many ways for a mid to high level wizard to guarantee: time for buffing, going first, etc. You just have to know them and use them.

As for immunity to critical hits, there are numerous spells and items that provide this.

As I said in my very first post, a monk (and particularly a cheating one) can take out a badly played wizard.

 

[Dandu]

Greylord, I have caster builds at level 13, 15, and 20. If you want to make a monk at a corresponding level so a comparison can be made, feel free to.

Level 10:
Evard

Level 13:
Serenity
Rhystion
Imhotep
Thinderella the Necromantic Naturist

Level 15:
Abraxis

Level 20:
Yahtzee
Ozimandias
Rachel
Evilwizardington