Monks are Balanced?

[Dandu]

Can't count on the Monk attacking during those hours the Mage's spells are up...if the Mage isn't aware of the Monk...then the Mage has no reason to keep them up...unless the Mage is in the habit of simply tossing away spells for no reason...or is surrounded by those he thinks will kill him any minute...at which point Mage may not be getting much sleep...or having much time to study and renew his/her spells either (one KEY weakness of Wizards and a few of the other spellcasters).

Mage Armor: Last all day. Why not have it up?
Alter Self: Using a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, it lasts 3 hours and 30 minutes. 3 second level spell slots last 10 hours. That's most of the time you're out of your house doing stuff. And at level 10, you can probably spare the slots. If you're in a dangerous profession like adventuring, you'd be a fool not to.

Also, the proper adventurer sleeps in a Rope Trick.

However, unless he has a way of actually knowing the Monk is there...he wouldn't know when or where the Monk is going to attack...or the Assassin...or the thief....

Yeah, about that...

Admittedly, that one is more of a Wizard trick.

Hope he has some good way to detect stealth...cause your build is never going to SPOT them.

Rats.

I feel that mere theory will not convince you, however, and repeat my offer to set up an encounter between a monk and a spellcaster. Surely you have the time for such a venture, if the breadth of your response on this forum is any indication.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

From the Contact Other Plane chart notes, evidence that Dandu may be from another plane.

 

[Dandu]

Maybe.

 

[kitcik]

Normal Monk would probably have at LEAST a +3 to +5 (depending on STR and perhaps one magic item...more if the Monk includes several various items, or with the right build and DM interpretation, maybe based off DEX instead) to hit on top of the BAB.

However you're right with the Monk simply moving up and attacking, normally with Stun or QP.

Look, he can't have any Str or Dex or magic weapons with a 44 Wis at CL 15. In fact, just with the Wis and the portable anti-magic field with the on/off switch, he's clearly cheating big time on WBL already.

So, your friend's monk killed a wizard through cheating and a badly played blaster wizard as I predicted from my first post (ok I didn't predict the cheating).

I suggest you open yourself up to learning better wizardry (not from me!) and go bust the monk player's build.

But, if you prefer to carry on arguing that monks beat on wizards, then go after Dandu. Maybe you are not the best monk builder, but we are talking about a no-multiclass duel. His builds are not anti-monk and you can make yours as anti-wizard as you want. Heck, he probably wouldn't mind if you took WBL +20%.

 

[Dandu]

Why would you need wealth on the monk, the most balanced and least gear dependent class in the game?

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I played a human fighter4/monk12 in the Age of Worms AP (well that's the level she was at when we had to retire the campaign.) I'd originally designed her as a mook muncher. But there's the thing with the standard DND adventure: they tend towards One Big Monster foes as opposed to hordes of mooks.

I've got to say, she lagged behind the rest of the party in terms of power the whole way. But she was VERY versatile. She acted as the scout and decoy/flanking bonus in combat.

The best feat she took was Leadership. For her cohort she picked a bard. That bard's sole purpose was to buff her. Between that and a +4 STR item she (nearly) caught up with the front line fighters in terms of attack bonuses.

Could she take out a buffed and combat ready wizard? No. But she could be one hell of a distraction for one. Meanwhile the rest of the party had free rein...

cheers all.

 

[GreyLord]

Mage Armor: Last all day. Why not have it up?
Alter Self: Using a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, it lasts 3 hours and 30 minutes. 3 second level spell slots last 10 hours. That's most of the time you're out of your house doing stuff. And at level 10, you can probably spare the slots. If you're in a dangerous profession like adventuring, you'd be a fool not to.

Also, the proper adventurer sleeps in a Rope Trick.
Yeah, about that...

Admittedly, that one is more of a Wizard trick.
Rats.

I feel that mere theory will not convince you, however, and repeat my offer to set up an encounter between a monk and a spellcaster. Surely you have the time for such a venture, if the breadth of your response on this forum is any indication.

I'd be willing to DM on these forums between you two if he came here.

I DOUBT you'd enjoy it though...I DO have a lot of limitations that many would not like their Wizards to have (like you have to sleep...you have to actually memorize spells and choose which ones are memorized...and contact other plane...what are you asking exactly?

You also realize if you fail your DC check...your INT WILL fall to 8...right?

I think the answer you may get...maybe...might not give you much depending on how specific you get...and if you already know that this bunch of adventurers is coming...as I said before...why would you be waiting defensively instead of going on the offensive)?

I'm not certain I understand about your Rats comment?

I would be interested specifically in how you'll spot him though!

Or are you suggesting you'll polymorph into a RAT?

I'll be harsher on the Monk too, more strict than I was at the session...I'll even double check his stats and make him conform to the wealth per level and other standards.

As a Wizard you'll be STUCK with the spells you memorize...so no changing them on the fly...also...the other question is who is hunting who and why. Are you expecting them, if so...why?

Are they expecting you...if so...why?

If you aren't expecting them...I think it may go poorly for you...though if you start casting spells for no reason I AM the type of DM to start giving you reasons to cast them...as in...if you are at home and decide to constantly have defenses on...well...there should be some reason they are always up.

Paranoia is a good reason...also ensures that you'll have some madness come upon you...insanity tends to be something that goes with Paranoia.

Maybe you don't trust your henchmen...think they may stab you in the back. Good reason...they MAY try to stab you in the back. That tends to waste spells on your part though if your henchmen are doing that...since you probably are going to have to kill a few every so often to make the others understand that you are serious.

Maybe you think adventurers are coming to kill you every day...this just gets worse...as then the MOnk will find allies against you and of course...even before he gets there you may have to fight an entire party of spellcasters and warriors.

On the otherhand if you are the good guys going after the Monk...why would he expect you. What does he do? maybe he's the one that's insane?

Gotta give me some background on what is what for the confrontation when I ask the fellow...

In which case if you are hunting him a Planar request could be very useful...as in...where exactly is this fellow you are hunting.

And unless he has a VERY good reason to expect you, I'd say he doesn't know you are coming either...unless you give yourself away (blow up his front gate and storm the castle type thing). Probably as a Wizard could take him by surprise and do a one round kill...if you can stop him from making his saves.

Same effects apply to him...he might be mad and insane...or have mulitple people trying to kill him depending on if he decides to metagame or not (and that's what a lot of stuff boils down to...playing out of character by metagaming instead of playing in the game).

Metagaming is why some may hate my style of DMing occasionally...I tend to have no problems with some...and major problems with others, normally if they start doing things for no real reason...that's where the problems start.

Believe it or not though...despite what it may sound like...I would actually favor the Wizard (bias on my part) to win at higher levels on a straight one on one.

I'll ask him if you want, or if I find his character continues to increase in power from what I saw last session and gets more cheesy...you'll be free to take him into your group, he does seem like a nice guy. On the otherhand, he may just be good with Monks...my experience with them is limited.

PS: As an aside, as for Mad Mages...some pretty famous mages have been pretty Mad/Insane. So being insane may actually be a key to power...who knows!!!!

 

[Dandu]

I DOUBT you'd enjoy it though...I DO have a lot of limitations that many would not like their Wizards to have (like you have to sleep...you have to actually memorize spells and choose which ones are memorized...and contact other plane...what are you asking exactly?

And you really think I haven't thought this sort of thing through?

I sleep in a Rope Trick, which assassins can't access. That is also where I memorize spells and buff. And Contact Other Planes, and have sex.

If you want justification for using a Rope Trick as a private sanctum, here it is: cheap, private, secure. We good?

You also realize if you fail your DC check...your INT WILL fall to 8...right?

I love the take ten rule.

I think the answer you may get...maybe...might not give you much depending on how specific you get...and if you already know that this bunch of adventurers is coming...as I said before...why would you be waiting defensively instead of going on the offensive)?

The best offense is a good defense.

I'm not certain I understand about your Rats comment?

I would be interested specifically in how you'll spot him though!

Or are you suggesting you'll polymorph into a RAT?

The rat familiar has the ability to sniff out the monk. Snakes have scent as well. Bats have blindsense. There are more familiars with special sensory abilities out there.

As a Wizard you'll be STUCK with the spells you memorize...so no changing them on the fly...also...the other question is who is hunting who and why. Are you expecting them, if so...why?

By level 10, you will have certainly made enemies, so I am going to say I expect enemies because I am the kind of person to have enemies. You know, like the President.

Are they expecting you...if so...why?

I honestly wouldn't know why my enemies are expecting me. (To do what? Forgive me, but your post can be rambling and incoherent at time.)

If you aren't expecting them...I think it may go poorly for you...though if you start casting spells for no reason I AM the type of DM to start giving you reasons to cast them...as in...if you are at home and decide to constantly have defenses on...well...there should be some reason they are always up.

The reason they are always up is because there is no reason to not have them up. Spell slots replenish at the start of the next day, and you certainly get a lot of them at mid to upper levels.

Paranoia is a good reason...also ensures that you'll have some madness come upon you...insanity tends to be something that goes with Paranoia.

What.

Maybe you don't trust your henchmen...think they may stab you in the back. Good reason...they MAY try to stab you in the back. That tends to waste spells on your part though if your henchmen are doing that...since you probably are going to have to kill a few every so often to make the others understand that you are serious.

Again, what.

Maybe you think adventurers are coming to kill you every day...this just gets worse...as then the MOnk will find allies against you and of course...even before he gets there you may have to fight an entire party of spellcasters and warriors.

So... what you are saying is... that by expecting and preparing for being attacked... a wizard will cause himself to be attacked... by giving the MOnk allies... what.

On the otherhand if you are the good guys going after the Monk...why would he expect you. What does he do? maybe he's the one that's insane?

We know he's insane, he chose to spend years learning how to hurt people with less efficacy than picking up a big stick and hitting them with it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I sleep in a Rope Trick, which assassins can't access. That is also where I memorize spells and buff. And Contact Other Planes, and have sex.

According to the bard Chris of the Rock, there is no sex in the Rope Trick space...

The rat familiar has the ability to sniff out the monk. Snakes have scent as well. Bats have blindsense. There are more familiars with special sensory abilities out there.

Some of the special familiars would not only be able to detect the Monk, but might not be perceived by the monk until it was too late, and may be immune to crits or stunning.

And, FWIW, if the Mage is a summoner, some of the critters may be able to go toe to toe with the monk on his own terms, depending on spell used.

 

[GreyLord]

If one is paranoid to sleep all the time in a Rope Trick, even at home...I'd say that's bad news.

In the one on one the Monk will actually be the least of the Wizard's worries. That's how it works...if that's part of the backstory, I'll integrate it.

These enemies are probably pretty powerful...maybe part of the group that hired the Monk.

I'd imagine you'll be fighting some of them before he even gets there...

That kind of stinks for you...if you're

If one metagames...and makes weak excuses...prepare to have weak excuses come back to haunt you.

One Paranoia is the fear that someone is always out to get you even if there aren't...much easier to have then actually having enemies that will hunt you down to the point that you ALWAYS sleep by Rope Trick...

That's some pretty serious fear and some pretty bad enemies if grounded in reality for your character.

Though if you're the BBEG I suppose it works...Elminister is on your tail and looking to banish you forever? Or would that be Khelben (saying we are doing this at the time he's active and around)?

For the Rat, I think that depends on DM interpretation. Familiar has +2 to your Fort Saves, and the Monk is within move and attack range by the time the Rat even detects him (30 ft)., so I'm still missing what you are on about the Rat. (or are you in a windy prairie and expect a monk to come at you from upwind? so metagaming the hoped for 60 feet?). The Monk's movement by upper levels have the Monk move as far more than 30 feet. I'm not that great at Monks, but I am familiar enough with their move to realize that.

You could try an alarm spell, but with such big enemies coming for you...I'm not certain that would be a great option for you either....