Monks are Balanced?

[GreyLord]

How about one spell before the party gets there: teleport.

To a location where he can buff up and annihilate the party?

It really seems like you don't know much about playing a caster (no offense, neither do i). I mean you have never heard of Contingency? Extend Spell?

Check out Quicken Spell and Persist Spell (24 hour buffs). Check out Abjurant Champion that cast abjurations as swift actions.

There are many ways for a mid to high level wizard to guarantee: time for buffing, going first, etc. You just have to know them and use them.

As for immunity to critical hits, there are numerous spells and items that provide this.

As I said in my very first post, a monk (and particularly a cheating one) can take out a badly played wizard.

Yes, I have actually, even pointed out the weakness with Quicken. Contingency unfortunately with this specific group, as I stated before, has been banned from me using it. I actually utilized ways (aka...loopholes, some may say a little DM rule bending? to be able to create a way for multiple contingency spells at a time...which is where the banning came in...etc.).

Teleport is a nice idea if the Wizard thought he'd lose. Normally in a straight up fight at high level I don't lose. Normally the party would have gotten blasted...and in fact most times have done TPKs unless they retreat against the BBEG and figure a better way then straight on in a head to head fight.

I'm not that helpless...still didn't stop the monk from one round shutdown of the main caster this time around.

I let their good rolls be good rolls though, and let them do the damage that they feel they should. Of course it also means if I make my saves against the wizards weak save or dies...then I make my saves and do the damage right back at them.

I go for the kill instead of defense typically, kills the party in a straight up fight rather than waiting for them to kill me. Typically it also works.

Quicken spell typically isn't worth the bang for the buck. With only two to three 8th level spell slots, I can kill an entire party with two 8th level spells if I'm lucky...Stoneskin doesn't kill a soul...same with Polymorph...though if you want to go head to head melee it could be a good idea...otherwise...I prefer to cast the much more powerful 8th level spells in my 8th level slots.

For feats beyond core, I'd actually prefer Twin Spell over Persistent spell in some cases...though I do like Extend spell when in combat, normally on the effects on OTHERS rather then the BBEG though.

I'm more of an offensive attacker than defensive...finishing off the enemy parties in 2 to 3 rounds max.

 

[Dandu]

Greylord, the post above yours contains several builds that I am confident would fare well even without contingency. Unless the caster started right next to the monk, buck naked, and the monk won initiative. Then I'd say... 50/50?

 

[GreyLord]

Greylord, I have caster builds at level 13, 15, and 20. If you want to make a monk at a corresponding level so a comparison can be made, feel free to.

That could be fun...unfortunately I think I'm better at creating casters than Monks. As I stated previously, not really played Monks much, nor had them played in our parties much. This new guy probably knows a thing or two about making them though, maybe I can talk to him...next session is Friday.

I seem to get relegated to having to play the Cleric or Wizard when I am a Player regardless that I'd prefer playing a Bard or Ranger. I supposedly am a "NICE" player in that I'll actually buff up other players instead of being selfish...heal others...and then still take out the bad guys... (and bards even help the rest of the party...but they still want me as a Cleric or Wizard....which is why I'm stuck playing the freaking Cleric right now in another group).

whilst on the otherhand last time I played an Avenger...errr I mean not completely evil Assassin I got killed at level 8 and most of the party then got killed alongside me.

Of course part of that was probably because I was the one left out sneaking around in front of everyone and doing all the stuff...and when I rolled a two in the middle of a group of the baddies...well...bad things happened. Didn't go much better as my next three rolls weren't over a 3 either...but as they say...I'm just making up bad excuses...

Thanks for the idea though, as I said it could be fun.

 

[GreyLord]

Greylord, the post above yours contains several builds that I am confident would fare well even without contingency. Unless the caster started right next to the monk, buck naked, and the monk won initiative. Then I'd say... 50/50?

Didn't look over them yet, but ironic thing in your post.

Actually, that was my original portion of it. With the slight change of the Wizard being within the Monk's initial movement (so not right beside, but close enough for the Monk simply to hop over), the Monk would have a 50/50 chance of killing the Wizard, which to me seems an extraordinarily HIGH chance or percentage.

I had to look up to see if I was hearing it right when the player was telling me about hitting me with the Quivering Palm. I knew, but for some reason it never really clicked until he did it to the BBEG last session. Lo and behold...with simple checks...it indeed could be a 50/50 chance against the Monk...which is FAR better than just about any other Melee character out there than I know of...which is where my surprise came in.

From my original post

...but at the minimum something a Wizard should fear

With those chances along with the ability for the Monk to sneak around (non-magical stealth) I'd send a bunch of Monks to kill a BBEG Wizard before sending the local group of Fighters/Barbarians etc.

Which is where the more balance I'm coming from...against Wizards. Monks seem much more remarkably able than the typical Fighter...though the Fighter could get Stun lock against creatures...the Fighter typically won't concentrate as strongly on Wisdom....hence the saves aren't going to be that rough...and the Fighter can't evade through enemies as easily nor use dimension door (though toss in a few levels of Mage and Eldritch Knight and he can...though far later in leveling)...and definately seems to lack the saves, defense against touch attacks, and SR.

AKA...the Monk seems to be much better matched against a Wizard overall than other classes.

It's not a definate kill...though this guy's Monk on which he concentrated on a few areas seems a little overkill in some arenas...it seems to do surprisingly better against wizards than what I've heard many complain about on these boards.

Edit Addition: Did a quick glance through...should be okay if with a party. If alone against Monk (Or even a Rogue or Assassin for that matter) could I suggest a few levels of spot...maybe a few of search too depending on what they do if you don't spot them? Maybe you got it covered by a contingency or something...not certain...but that's probably their first avenue of approach one on one. Otherwise, interesting characters at first glance.

 

[Dandu]

Actually, that was my original portion of it. With the slight change of the Wizard being within the Monk's initial movement (so not right beside, but close enough for the Monk simply to hop over), the Monk would have a 50/50 chance of killing the Wizard, which to me seems an extraordinarily HIGH chance or percentage.

I had to look up to see if I was hearing it right when the player was telling me about hitting me with the Quivering Palm. I knew, but for some reason it never really clicked until he did it to the BBEG last session. Lo and behold...with simple checks...it indeed could be a 50/50 chance against the Monk...which is FAR better than just about any other Melee character out there than I know of...which is where my surprise came in.

To kill a caster with a monk, you will have to move up to the caster and attack. Immediately, you have the problem of only being able to launch one single attack on the round that you advance on the enemy.

Now, that attack could be a Stunning Fist, which targets the caster's weak Fort save... except that the DC is based off of Wisdom, and to hit is based off of not-Wisdom. I have a level 10 monk whose Stunning Fist DC is 20, which sounds nice until you realize the level 10 sorcerer I posted earlier has a Fort save of +11. And an AC of 26 using spells whose duration is measured in hours vs the monk's attack bonus of +11. And this sorcerer isn't even that optimized, just competently built.

Grappling is another caster killing tactic, but you cannot establish a grapple and pin someone to quiet them with one attack. In the best case scenario, you simply manage to initiate a grapple, which one Dimension Door or similar spell will foil.

Sending the caster into negative HP with damage will not work either, as there is no way for a monk to do so. Well, you could if you multiclassed into Fighter, and took Spirited Charge, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper so you could Power Attack with a lance... but at this point, you're better off being a different class entirely.

tl;dr Not even 50/50.

 

[Dandu]

The 50/50 statistic was me being extraordinarily generous.

 

[kitcik]

To kill a caster with a monk, you will have to move up to the caster and attack. Immediately, you have the problem of only being able to launch one single attack on the round that you advance on the enemy.

Now, that attack could be a Stunning Fist, which targets the caster's weak Fort save... except that the DC is based off of Wisdom, and to hit is based off of not-Wisdom. I have a level 10 monk whose Stunning Fist DC is 20, which sounds nice until you realize the level 10 sorcerer I posted earlier has a Fort save of +11. And an AC of 26 using spells whose duration is measured in hours vs the monk's attack bonus of +11. And this sorcerer isn't even that optimized, just competently built.

Grappling is another caster killing tactic, but you cannot establish a grapple and pin someone to quiet them with one attack. In the best case scenario, you simply manage to initiate a grapple, which one Dimension Door or similar spell will foil.

Sending the caster into negative HP with damage will not work either, as there is no way for a monk to do so. Well, you could if you multiclassed into Fighter, and took Spirited Charge, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper so you could Power Attack with a lance... but at this point, you're better off being a different class entirely.

tl;dr Not even 50/50.

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] my friend, there is one thing you are failing to consider, which I will summarize in the following points, and which could result in THIS monk defeating one of your wizards:
1) This monk has a wisdom of 44. That is not a typo - 44 - at level 15.
2) This monk has a portable anti-magic field which he can turn on and off.
3) This monk has no trouble hitting, despite his medium BAB and full investment in Wisdom (not Strength).

Now, I admit your wizard does not meet the criteria set forth in my first post (badly played blaster) as the OP's did, but, on the other hand, the monk does not seem to meet the criteria set forth in the rules of D&D 3.5.

 

[Dandu]

I concede the argument.

 

[GreyLord]

Normal Monk would probably have at LEAST a +3 to +5 (depending on STR and perhaps one magic item...more if the Monk includes several various items, or with the right build and DM interpretation, maybe based off DEX instead) to hit on top of the BAB.

However you're right with the Monk simply moving up and attacking, normally with Stun or QP. One attack.

Personally I hate having to work on the Wizard being defensive as I'm of the opinion a good defense is a strong offense...if you kill them first...you'll never have to worry about them attacking you in the first place! However, that's where all the Polymorph ideas people were tossing around earlier came from I imagine...as they are thinking of defenseively instead of offensively.

Typically you need to go on offense to kill someone though. Defense keeps you alive...but unless you are trying to kill them...they'll just keep attacking!

Can't count on the Monk attacking during those hours the Mage's spells are up...if the Mage isn't aware of the Monk...then the Mage has no reason to keep them up...unless the Mage is in the habit of simply tossing away spells for no reason...or is surrounded by those he thinks will kill him any minute...at which point Mage may not be getting much sleep...or having much time to study and renew his/her spells either (one KEY weakness of Wizards and a few of the other spellcasters).

If Mage is aware of the Monk, they'd be an idiot not to take the knowledge and buff up and attack to be on the offense and possibly catch them by surprise rather than be surprised.

However, unless he has a way of actually knowing the Monk is there...he wouldn't know when or where the Monk is going to attack...or the Assassin...or the thief....

Hope he has some good way to detect stealth...cause your build is never going to SPOT them.

If he doesn't spot or know they are there...that's yet another bonus the Monk gets (didn't get it in our fight, Wizard knew Monk was there at the beginning).

If they get something that grants a low level replication of something like True Strike (+20 to hit), even once a day...hitting that Wizard actually isn't that tough at all...and rather cheap too. Actually, they'd have to roll a 1 to miss an AC of 26.

I'd have something even simple like a ring of invisibility...now that's an item that's useful for any wizard against NON-Wizards. Without a counteraction for that, it makes it an automatic 50% miss chance for the Monk regardless.

Now that I'm thinking about that...not a bad idea for my next BBEG with this party...though I imagine the Cleric will simply disable that idea within a round.

 

[GreyLord]

I concede the argument.

Dang it, you were making me think and I was coming up with ideas of my next BBEG to threaten them and ways which I could bolster them all around INCLUSIVE of that troubling Monk player!