Monks are Balanced?

[Dandu]

I would like to point out that a Wild Elf Sorcerer could have an Int of 6 or lower depending on his rolls, but would still be able to cast Contact Other Plane as it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. This would mean an entire section of the spell could not be replaced with white-out, as the Wild Elf's results would be quite low when taking 10. if you roll poorly for Int, you could wind up with a 3 in that score. Sometimes the dice really hate you.

Regarding taking 10 on the COP check, there are good points that it should not be allowed. However, there's the other side of the issue. Do you allow rogues to take 10 when searching for traps? If you do, then you're letting them take 10 in a dangerous situation with imminent and perilous peril...

But it's all theoretical, as I'd never use that spell in real life. I prefer Commune. Which you can get off of an Imp familiar.

Anyways, Greylord, you've mentioned various things a monk could do to try and assassinate the wizard, but if you want to prove that the Monk class is good at mageslaying, you must tell us what the Monk class does that makes it good at mageslaying. Gathering allies is useful, but that is not something you can only do with the Monk class, nor is it something the Monk class does especially well. The same can be said for sneaking into a wizard's tower (really, all you're going to do is set off traps and alert the wizard to your presence without Trapfinding) and most of the other tactics you came up with.

 

[GreyLord]

I would like to point out that a Wild Elf Sorcerer could have an Int of 6 or lower depending on his rolls, but would still be able to cast Contact Other Plane as it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. This would mean an entire section of the spell could not be replaced with white-out, as the Wild Elf's results would be quite low when taking 10. if you roll poorly for Int, you could wind up with a 3 in that score. Sometimes the dice really hate you.

Regarding taking 10 on the COP check, there are good points that it should not be allowed. However, there's the other side of the issue. Do you allow rogues to take 10 when searching for traps? If you do, then you're letting them take 10 in a dangerous situation with imminent and perilous peril...

But it's all theoretical, as I'd never use that spell in real life. I prefer Commune. Which you can get off of an Imp familiar.

Anyways, Greylord, you've mentioned various things a monk could do to try and assassinate the wizard, but if you want to prove that the Monk class is good at mageslaying, you must tell us what the Monk class does that makes it good at mageslaying. Gathering allies is useful, but that is not something you can only do with the Monk class, nor is it something the Monk class does especially well. The same can be said for sneaking into a wizard's tower (really, all you're going to do is set off traps and alert the wizard to your presence without Trapfinding) and most of the other tactics you came up with.

I thought I covered that already...but for starters....

-Ability to tumble through and get through everyone in front of the caster...so as to reach the caster easily...

-Fast movement. Abilities allow the Monk to have a move that is much further than others...hence why the scent ability doesn't give you enough warning...it doesn't reach far enough...hence I don't even know why you guys mentioned it as the monk would be able to move from beyond scent's range to strike the caster in a single move and attack.

-Probable high intiative with a good chance for first strike on an unprepped mage...

-ability to one shot the mage with a high chance of success.

Most of the time when people talk about the power of a spell caster it's when the spellcaster actually has time to prepare (aka...cast buffs, spells, etc. before the combat) in addition to actions in combat. This time though someone else is the PC and good guy which is the Monk, so reverse it for them instead.

In this case Monk actually takes less time for anything to that matter and simply goes in one round. With the one round encounter...Mage may have a chance to cast one spell if they win initiative.

An offensive spell is bad against the Monk, and the Wizard must decide to focus on the Monk (instead of a spellcaster in the party or another) as Monks have better saves than most against Spells.

Defensive spells may be useful depending on which one you cast, may be the wizards only chance. That is based upon the Wizard winning initiative.

Just like Clerics can be min/max'd to death to basically be a better fighter then the fighter...a Monk's BAB is pretty simple to actually easily raise to hit a wizard's AC to a point...I don't see that as a factor.

Of all the classes I'd say for a kill the wizard in the first round, the Monk seems to be the go to guy.

If it lasts longer than that or the Monk rolls poorly and the Wizard rolls high...well then the Monk quickly loses effectiveness.

Rolls could do that for anyone though...on average it appears that the Monk has a good chance to kill the Wizard BBEG UNLESS one creates a BBEG specifically to counter the Monk (which except for a few cases...is typically being an annoying DM).

If countering a Monk specifically, one could say their spellcaster BBEG stands a great distance from any door entrance and any of his guards...to the point where he may be beyond the Monk's special movement...

Other ways to specifically counter the Monk...

But I'm looking at a BBEG who is generally developed to counter a party that is all around and could also possibly include a Monk...so nothing specialized towards the Monk itself...but all around useful at combating the Monk and everyone else.

Most of the suggestions would be weak not only against a Monk, but Rogues and Assassins as well...I can build up against Assassins and Rogues quite easily...but as I found in the last session...Not so much against a Monk apparantly.

Leading me to think it's a tad tougher against the Monk to protect a Mage then others.

Big weakness is the first round actions of the monk with the ability to move through foes, far reaching movement...and that danged QP or stunning fist before one can really get anything off unless they win initiative. Even then it's only one spell...

Teleport is effective to escape...but hate having my BBEG run away if it looks like his side might be able to win against the rest of the party if he was able to survive that first Monk attack and cast spells. Without focusing on the Monk...a Wizard BBEG currently normally wont be able to make that 35 Fort roll though...which can be a little problem.

Not out to really prove much...as most who discourage it want to metagame inside the game instead of really roleplay the game...

Not a bad thing, just different play styles. Still got some interesting ideas to ponder before tomorrow's session, though now I'm leaning more towards having something like an corrupted Druid or something instead of a Wizard for the next BBEG.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of the fundamental errors you are making is that initiative matters. A well played Mage will have spells in place- either his own or via items- that will be active before the two of them ever face off, such as the aforementioned Mage Armor or the more powerful Contingency.

 

[xigbar]

If the mage turns into a Dire Tortoise, it wins Initiative automatically.

 

[GreyLord]

If the mage turns into a Dire Tortoise, it wins Initiative automatically.

Seriously, one is going to go through life constnatly as a Dire Tortoise...all their life?

You Jest?

I don't have any problems with Mage Armor...but that's hardly a game changer at the higher levels...in fact that would be one of the weaker defenses.

Contingency on the other hand can be a matter of metagame. Contingency truly depends on how lenient your DM is with your wording. Is it the moment you are attacked is the wording...meaning the Monk has to actually attack first...

Is it when you see a Monk...in which case your truly screwed if you are attacked by another spellcaster...

Contingency is sort of open to interpretation by how lax or strict a DM is on the wording of the situation (or in my case...banned from my NPC's due to players dissatisfaction at how I used it...too powerful according to them...and as DM unfair as I would be the one to interpret how lax or strict the contingency would need to be).

So, if you have a lax DM on the wording...it's fine in all likihood for your...turning into a Dire tortoise...or maybe a Zombie?

Of course, being undead bring out other problems, such as the Cleric...but that's another discussion.

If you have a DM that's not so lax...than it may boil down to metagaming to be prepared specifically for a Monk attack along with other things...

With adding in Metagaming though, something that I don't think anyone actually does besides to try to prove how powerful their Wizard COULD be (since in metagaming every situation is always able to be prepared for, every eventuality known...etc.) is to show what happens with other characters.

Something that opens up greatly with the Monk in party dynamics is the ability to use the Monk as a first strike...it doesn't even have to be with QP...it could be utilzing the Monk to deliver an attack personally that is utilized by a spellcaster but requires actual contact. If buffed up or given other dynamics...Monks can be an extremely effective first strike given synergies of a party.

Sort of like Kato and the Green Hornet...welll...that is if the Green Hornet was a Sorcerer and Kato was still his sidekick that could deliver stuff from the sorcerer to his foes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You don't trigger Contingency on attacks by a specific class, your wording is dependent on circumstances- frequently something fairly general- and typically, the spell triggered- "instantaneously"- is something either nastily offensive or broadly defensive.

For example, a spellcaster of my acquaintance who usually had his party of allies around him feared no martial attackers, so he set Minor Globe of Invulnerability to trigger "as soon as he entered combat". IOW, as soon as initiative was rolled- or rarely, when the first attack roll of an ambush was rolled- the MGoI triggered...before any damage could be done.

Another Mage, OTOH, was more concerned about melee attacks, and would trigger a Stoneskin, go into a Gaseous Form or become Invisible...likewise before a single blow could be struck.

Yet another had Polymorph as his favored Contingency spell, transforming into creatures immune to crits & stunning- completely neutralizing a lot of nasty melee attack effects, including Monks' QP- with formidable physical stats to boot...while still being able to cast all of his spells. Still another favored Baleful Polymorph, meaning melee attackers frequently became Toads.

All triggered by very general conditions that would take effect before a single blow could land.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Unlike Visigani, these threads amuse me because they always dissolve into the same format:

A: I do this..
B: Well, I have a spell trick that counters that.

This is typical of any discussion involving a Wizard/Sorc when someone suggests a way to beat them.

What's overlooked by B is that having the right spell requires perfect information...which in real life, a Wizard would not have. The inevitable counter argument is that the Wizard will be casting Foresight. That spell lasts 200 minutes at 20th level. With a 44 int, you're getting 8 9th level spells. So if you run Foresight 24-7, you're not casting any other 9th level spells and that cuts into any metamagic'd spells at lower levels. Of course here come all the magic items to the rescue e.g. Pearls of Power, wands, scrolls, etc.

Greylord, you're never going to convince people with words that a Wizard could lose. But your instincts are correct. Within a campaign, you have plausibility on your side. Anyone who is going to take out a Wizard at high level is not going to slap him in the face and challenge him to a duel. He's going to plan it out. Make sure the Wizard doesn't know what to expect. Use magic to make sure the Wizard doesn't see it coming or to mislead the Wizard to expect A while instead attacking the Wizard with Z.

And of course you have to get the Wizard in to an anti-magic zone. Can a grappled Wizard escape from an anti-magic zone? Undoubtedly the answer is he would never get caught in one ;-)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Greylord, you're never going to convince people with words that a Wizard could lose. But your instincts are correct. Within a campaign, you have plausibility on your side. Anyone who is going to take out a Wizard at high level is not going to slap him in the face and challenge him to a dual. He's going to plan it out. Make sure the Wizard doesn't know what to expect. Use magic to make sure the Wizard doesn't see it coming or to mislead the Wizard to expect A while instead attacking the Wizard with Z.

I agree that no wizard will have perfect information. What I'm saying- perhaps as the biggest Monk-o-phile on these boards (see my sig)- is that a well played wizard will play the odds. Odds are high that he will face a melee attack, so he will have some plan to deal with one...and the higher his level becomes, the more and better options he'll have.

And at high enough levels, attacking such a Mage in melee may be tantamount to suicide, depending on the spells he chooses and the feats & items at his disposal.

 

[Arrowhawk]

For example, a spellcaster of my acquaintance who usually had his party of allies around him feared no martial attackers, so he set Minor Globe of Invulnerability to trigger "as soon as he entered combat".

Correct me if I am wrong, but that would work...once. After the first combat, the GoI and the Contingency spell are used up..and that would be a substantial portion of your 6th level spells for any given day.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Odds are high that he will face a melee attack, so he will have some plan to deal with one...

The "odds" are he will face a melee attack at higher level? Really? So high level Wizards are more afraid of some Fighter/Ranger/Monk/Barbarian and more prepared to deal with them than some Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Warmage/Outsider/Diety/Demigod/Erudite/Beguiler/Dragon/Efreet/...well you get the point.

Yeah...not really subscribing to those assessment of the odds.

EDIT:

If you're simply saying that a Wizard will expect a physical attack as part of any assault on his person...sure. But I think that's an order of magnitude below the preparation you'd need to deal with the character Greylord was presenting. My point is that it's more plausible a Wizard's greatest concern and preparation will be to contend with other magic-using beings who are most likely to see the Wizard as an immediate threat to their own power.