Monks are Balanced?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Correct me if I am wrong, but that would work...once. After the first combat, the GoI and the Contingency spell are used up..and that would be a substantial portion of your 6th level spells for any given day.

MGoI- actually renamed GoI, Lesser in 3Ed- is a 4th level spell. And given that it protects a mage from a wide variety of spells he could face from lesser casters, it's not a bad deal.

The Mage in question was frequently running afoul of a particular rival and his students. When a gang of 15+ mages of 3rd-6th level they to ambush you a couple of times, that Globe becomes a lifesaver.

And again, it depends on the trigger's wording. I say "upon entering combat", but it wasn't my PC, and I was merely illustrating a point that a high-level caster's defensive spell casting is not necessarily dependent on his winning initiative.

It also depends on when Contingency was cast. Cast at the beginning of your day, it may be wasted (if poorly worded). OTOH, cast midday or before you rest, and you get a different kind of value: end of the day security.

 

[Arrowhawk]

MGoI- actually renamed GoI, Lesser in 3Ed- is a 4th level spell. And given that it protects a mage from a wide variety of spells he could face from lesser casters, it's not a bad deal.

The Mage in question was frequently running afoul of a particular rival and his students. When a gang of 15+ mages of 3rd-6th level they to ambush you a couple of times, that Globe becomes a lifesaver.

And again, it depends on the trigger's wording. I say "upon entering combat", but it wasn't my PC, and I was merely illustrating a point that a high-level caster's defensive spell casting is not necessarily dependent on his winning initiative.

It also depends on when Contingency was cast. Cast at the beginning OD your day, it may be wasted (if poorly worded). OTOH, cast midday or before you rest, and you get a different kind of value.

Ah, so the Wizard has perfect information about who he'd be facing (that they only had 3rd level spells or lower) and they'd be the first group he'd fight next?

Well, the Contingency spell lasts days/level. So it could be cast prior to resting for new spells. But my point was that as soon as you were attacked by anything, you'd have to recast the spell (both of them actually)....which means it's got to be on your list of spells. With a 44 Int at level 20, you're only getting six 6th level spells. If your intel is less than 38 or so, you're getting five. Again, how many of those are you going to devote to Contingency so you're always ready with that GoI,lesser?

My point is again, it's just not plausible for a Wizard to be prepared for every contingency (no pun intended). These Wizards are 3L33t discussions invariably hinge on the pro-Wizard side assuming they have perfect information and always have the necessary spell prepared or precast.

<shrug>

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ah, so the Wizard has perfect information about who he'd be facing (that they only had 3rd level spells or lower) and they'd be the first group he'd fight next?

No, not perfect info. He had info regarding something highly probable that was a significant threat: lots of Magic Misslies, Fireballs, lightning bolts, etc.

Those casters were not the only threat in the campaign, however. They were just the most likely to try to ambush him in the city in which he lived.

It got kind of metagamey, too. The students, admittedly high Int types all- started attacking in staggered ambushes, as in multiple attacks per day. This meant to survive, the target Mage had to cast a new contingency after every ambush.

In the long run, he 1) moved out to the countryside and 2) took out his primary foe.

My point is again, it's just not plausible for a Wizard to be prepared for every contingency (no pun intended). These Wizards are 3L33t discussions invariably hinge on the pro-Wizard side assuming they have perfect information and always have the necessary spell prepared or precast.

What the pro-Wiz types argue- and rather convincingly, IMHO- is that an optimized wizard's list of spells will be flexible enough to deal with most threats, and like every other PC in the game (if not moreso), they have access to magical items to help them deal with the rest. And allies.

And I say that based on watching players who play those highly optimized wizards, and have for 20+ years. You may ding them, but by and large, you're not going to be a serious threat to them unless you are another spellcaster.

 

[Arrowhawk]

It got kind of metagamey, too. The students, admittedly high Int types all- started attacking in staggered ambushes, as in multiple attacks per day.

How would that be metagamy? I would assume any group assigned to kill someone is going to put a plan together, especially if the frontal assault failed. There's a module in Stormwrack which talks about the Goblins always ganging up on the weakest creatures first because they aren't stupid and they know that this is the quickest way to use their superior numbers to win a fight.

What I do think dances on the metagame line is when a DM creates the BBEG who has no relationship to the last BBEG the party whooped. As a DM, you quickly identify the tactics the PC's use to win battles. Invariably, you account for that with the next BBEG, especially if the prior BBEG went down way too quickly. This goes to the Wizard argument. The DM has perfect knowledge of what magic and feats a party will bring to the table...when in reality, the BBEG Wizard...might not. Especially if the DM does not provide a plausible way for the Wizard to determine info about the party prior to the adventure.

Even still, when you're building the BBEG spell list, you're doing it with that a piori knowledge of what the Wizard will face. It's the DM's job to make the game challenging, but tailoring the bad guy to win against specifically against the party crosses into that "metagamey" region you touched on.

This meant to survive, the target Mage had to cast a new contingency after every ambush.

Right, so that meant he had to memorize nothing but Contingency at 6th and GOI,L at 4th. Ignoring magic items.

Imo, speaks to Greylord's point. This Wizard is running around with Contingency, but it's because he's got enemies. Tha threat is forcing the Wizard to devoted some of his precious spell allotment towards contending with those enemies. In this case, other casters. That makes the Wizard ill-prepared for different kind of threat i.e. the Monk. You can't prepare two separate Contingency spells at the same time. You've got to make a choice and without the right information, you are less prepared, or, not prepared at all. This is never ever conceded by the pro-Wizard camp (and you are the pro-Monk camp, so you don't count )

In the long run, he 1) moved out to the countryside and 2) took out his primary foe.

ha.

 

[Empirate]

Perfect information is hard to come by, I agree. But how is the Monk going to get perfect information? If you're saying the Monk's information about his target is better than the Wizard's (who often, though not always, has more accessible sources of information based purely on class features) - then you're already assuming an ambush scenario. If one class needs that kind of edge to pose a threat to the other, this discussion doesn't prove much. If information is equal (as it often is in actual game situation, at least ideally speaking), it's much more hit-and-miss.



But discussing stuff in a vacuum doesn't help assessing class balance. How about the popular "face five different scenarios, see how it goes"? I'll give it a shot, assuming high-level play:

Two regulars make one character each, one Monk, one Wizard. Let's say level 15. But we can expand the challenge to include each one at 10th level as well as 20th level as well, if you like.
Each player picks one of the following seven scenarios to disallow, so five scenarios remain.

1. The Monk is a treacherous party member. He knows the Wizard's tricks intimately, including his defenses. He is implicitly trusted by the Wizard and has easy access to his stronghold (even an extraplanar one). The Monk is able to take his time to do the deed whenever, and is ready to devote his all to it.

2. The Wizard knows exactly what's coming, the Monk-of-murderous-intentions has unwittingly been ratted out to him early on, and the Wizard has done excessive research using all sources available to him on his modus operandi, power, resources etc. However, the Monk can pick the place and time to strike. Assume a paranoid Wizard, though.

3. A Monk is suddenly blackmailed to go after an equal-level Wizard he's never heard of (but neither has the Wizard ever heard of him). He has 1 hour to give it his best shot, before the Mafia kill his whole family. Assume the Wizard is on a quest to save the world, which takes precedence over all else, and doesn't suspect the Mafia to be out for his blood at all.

4. A Monk is suddenly blackmailed to go after an equal-level Wizard he's never heard of (but neither has the Wizard ever heard of him). He has 1 year to give it his best shot, before the Mafia kill his whole family. The Wizard is a great hater of Monks and Mafia, and generally paranoid where those guys are concerned. He has no reason to suspect an assassination attempt specifically by this Monk or this Mafia clan, though.

5. At the end of a long day of adventuring, a Monk and a Wizard from two different continents are unexpectedly and forcibly teleported to an open, high-domed, teleportation-and-summoning-proof arena. They're told only one of them will leave the arena alive. Also, both are completely stripped of gear.

6. At the end of a long day of adventuring, a Monk and a Wizard from two different continents are unexpectedly and forcibly teleported to an open, high-domed, teleportation-and-summoning-proof arena. They're told only one of them will leave the arena alive. Also, both are given exactly five level-appropriate magic items of their choosing.

7. Right before they embark on a long day of adventuring, a Monk and a Wizard from two different continents are unexpectedly and forcibly teleported to an open, high-domed, teleportation-and-summoning-proof arena. The Monk gets a Wizard bodyguard two levels below himself. The Wizard gets a Monk bodyguard two levels below himself. Each tag team has to kill the whole enemy team to win. If both sides suffer casualties, the fight is considered a draw.


What do you think?

 

[Arrowhawk]

What the pro-Wiz types argue- and rather convincingly, IMHO- is that an optimized wizard's list of spells will be flexible enough to deal with most threats, and like every other PC in the game (if not moreso), they have access to magical items to help them deal with the rest. And allies.

Well, the OP was talking about head to head...so allies aren't a part of it.

IMO, the only way to "prove" this is to create one of each class you care to measure. Give them the same WBL and point buy. Then, design several, like five, challenges that are orthogonal to each other. Do not let the players have any foreknowledge of what they are going to face. Characters cannot change your item load-out or memorized spell choices throughout any of the tasks (obviously we're not going to let caster's rest in the middle of a task). Then we'll see just how good this legendary flexible spell preparation really is when faced with unknown tasks.

Without allies, I don't buy that Wizard is equally prepared for all situations. Or let me put it this way, I don't buy that the average player is going to be equally prepared for all situations. Yes, there are sufficient spells for a Wizard to be prepared for anything, but in practice, it's not going to happen as a soloist.

Try it at 5, 10, 15, and 20th level.

 

[Luce]

Furthermore several different situations have to be considered. Or as some put it: "if the enemy can strike back you are doing something wrong." There are many factors to think about (otherwise it is like stating that a rogue is worthless since he cannot stand toe to toe to a fighter in a straight slug fest)
Consider the following:
who is ambushing who? Monk can hide and move silently, magic users have things like invisibility.
Therefore is there a surprise round? flatfooted wizards are easier to hit, casting fly (for example) before the monk reacts can give the edge to the wizard.
What is their equipment? There is a lot of magic to choose from from both sides.
Are we talking core, all/some of WoC, 3rd party sources? It makes a difference.

 

[Dandu]

I thought I covered that already...but for starters....

-Ability to tumble through and get through everyone in front of the caster...so as to reach the caster easily...

-Fast movement. Abilities allow the Monk to have a move that is much further than others...hence why the scent ability doesn't give you enough warning...it doesn't reach far enough...hence I don't even know why you guys mentioned it as the monk would be able to move from beyond scent's range to strike the caster in a single move and attack.

But as I have already covered, you do very little once you move up to the wizard and start hitting him. This is not an effective tactic for mageslaying.

-Probable high intiative with a good chance for first strike on an unprepped mage...

Mages generally have good Dex, can take Improved Initiative just like the monk, and have spells like Nerveskitter and Contingency to boot. I would not be so sure as you that the monk will have higher initiative.

-ability to one shot the mage with a high chance of success.

Explain how you are going to one shot him, as you can only make a single melee attack after tumbling up to him with your high speed. It's clearly not going to be through damage or grappling, so I'm going to assume Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm. Given that the fort save of the level 10 sorcerer I posted was enough to succeed against the Stunning Fist DC of the level 10 monk I posted on a 9 or higher (60% chance of success), I would not call that a "high" chance of success.

Most of the time when people talk about the power of a spell caster it's when the spellcaster actually has time to prepare (aka...cast buffs, spells, etc. before the combat) in addition to actions in combat. This time though someone else is the PC and good guy which is the Monk, so reverse it for them instead.

As I have pointed out, the buffs I assumed on the sorcerer last for hours. That is quite a long duration... or are you going to call having Mage Armor up before combat starts unfair now?

In this case Monk actually takes less time for anything to that matter and simply goes in one round. With the one round encounter...Mage may have a chance to cast one spell if they win initiative.

One spell is often all it takes to decisively turn the tide of battle.

An offensive spell is bad against the Monk

You know there are tons of spells that offer no saves, or screw you even on a save right? A quick list: Web, Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone.

, and the Wizard must decide to focus on the Monk (instead of a spellcaster in the party or another) as Monks have better saves than most against Spells.

Also, why are you assuming the monk has a party with him? Surely such a great mageslayer as the monk doesn't need three other people to take out an enemy of the same level... does he?

Just like Clerics can be min/max'd to death to basically be a better fighter then the fighter...a Monk's BAB is pretty simple to actually easily raise to hit a wizard's AC to a point...I don't see that as a factor.

Yes, and for the same amount of effort you could make a wizard who slays the gods. Monk still loses out.

Of all the classes I'd say for a kill the wizard in the first round, the Monk seems to be the go to guy.

Villain, be sure thou prove the monk a stalwart,
Be sure of it. Give me the ocular proof
Or by the worth of mine eternal soul
Thou hadst been better have been born a dog
Than answer my waked wrath!

Make me to see ’t, or at the least so prove it
That the probation bear no hinge nor loop
To hang a doubt on, or woe upon thy life!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How would that be metagamy?

It wasn't merely the fact of the foes planning, it was the particular details. After a certain point, the ambushers were using an arsenal of items that should have bankrupted SOMEBODY.

That's when the fight got taken to their leader.

That makes the Wizard ill-prepared for different kind of threat i.e. the Monk.

No, because he still has other spells; he still has items.

He just ranked a melee attack from the likes of monks less of a threat than a barrage of magic from a known foe who repeatedly attacked him. To do otherwise would mark him as a fool, and a dead one at that.

So he devotes his 6th and 4th level slots to fending off the entirely expected. He still has 1-3rd and 5th level spells. Perhaps he's even got a Metamagic rod of Quicken spell...

Look at it this way, if you're planning on wandering around in Grizzly Bear territory right after several reported attacks, you will make sure you're prepared as possible to deal with Grizzly Bears. But just because you are maximally prepared for Grizzly Bears doesn't mean you are unprepared for dealing with Wolves. If you're smart, you're not ONLY prepared for Grizzly Bears- Some of the same tactics will be effective, and some won't be. Because of that, you'll have other tactics and resources designed to deal with more generalized threats.

Well, the OP was talking about head to head...so allies aren't a part of it.

Actually, go back over the thread, and you'll find the allies thing pops up repeatedly in his posts, such as when he said:

...the Wizard must decide to focus on the Monk (instead of a spellcaster in the party or another) as Monks have better saves than most against Spells.

Or from the original post:

Add in the ability to use skills (with effective skill usage) to tumble through the enemy front lines of fighters and such to get to the Wizard in the back, with the hastened movement/speed to get there rapidly...

He's clearly talking about the Monk going after the Wizard in the context of one or both of them having allies- he expects the Monk to be able to get to the Wiz and kill him solo, with nobody being able to stop him.

 

[Dandu]

Look at it this way, if you're planning on wandering around in Grizzly Bear territory right after several reported attacks, you will make sure you're prepared as possible to deal with Grizzly Bears. But just because you are maximally prepared for Grizzly Bears doesn't mean you are unprepared for dealing with Wolves. If you're smart, you're not ONLY prepared for Grizzly Bears- Some of the same tactics will be effective, and some won't be. Because of that, you'll have other tactics and resources designed to deal with more generalized threats.

A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with rifled slugs or a .44 magnum with 300 grain Hornandy bullets will serve quite well against both bears and wolves, for example.