Monks are Balanced?

[GreyLord]

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]

Chance only is the 50% with an ill prepped Monk (NOT the one that single shotted my BBEG with a Fort Save needed of 35, we're talking more normal)(so even 60% which you stated is higher than what I estimate) at the relatively high level we discussed. It's on the first hit. Yes, it's with QP or SF.

Many trinkets can give you a bonus on one hit, if prepped right before going in it's even better. Let's say a potion that replicates true strike before hitting the door and surprising or assaulting the BBEG inside. +20 to hit on the first hit...not undoable. Other bonuses with the Monk, just like a Fighter...with items adding bonuses to hit are actually part of the expectations.

Hitting wouldn't be the problem.

Initiative could be...(admitted with the idea that sometimes the Mage will get the one spell just prior to getting attacked, I think I've mentioned that).

It's that one attack that makes the Monk the killer...more effective than even the Assassin's death strike or Rogues SA for ONE single attack.

So it's literally one move and hit...fight is over one way or the other.

I consider 50% extraordinarily high to tell the truth. Even spellcaster to spellcaster of equal levels I'd say 50%, maybe slightly higher.

Even attacking the Monk with spells in many times due to the Monks natural saves, not even adding bonuses on makes the Monk have better chances of surviving the Wizards spells...and tougher to touch attack due to the class bonuses to AC against touch attacks.

Fighters...against a high level mage...no way. Same with most melee...they'll get screwed over before even reaching the mage.

So yes, maybe the misunderstanding is what I classify as incredibly high chances...I consider a 50% remarkably high chances.

 

[GreyLord]

A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with rifled slugs or a .44 magnum with 300 grain Hornandy bullets will serve quite well against both bears and wolves, for example.

I've taken out bears with a Bow in hunting...that said...unless I'm the one hunting, I'm not facing down a grizzely with a 12 guage...you can take that 12 guage and go yourself!!!! (A black bear which is smaller than a Grizzley was shot right through the heart...kept going for another half mile almost!)

@ dannyAlc
Yes, my context is the typical party setting (I think a majority do RPGs that way) against a typical BBEG spellcaster and his personal bodyguard or NPC's he keeps around him.

Not really another PC optimized to fight other PC's and such, but the BBEG who plans on taking over the world or nation...or whatever you want.

And I still see the Monk as perhaps the Mage Killer in that light...which is why I tried the BBEG as a corrupted Druid tonight. It goes another session since they didn't even get a fifth of the way through the adventure anyways, so no attacking the Druid anyways. It should prove more interesting as he'll have all of nature on his side if they assail his place of sanctity. So far they've just killed a bunch of his mooks and are sneaking around all over the place...currently making holes (or tunnels I suppose you could say) in the ground below the forest as the snoop around.

Monk loves his Stunning Fist. Did fine overall with melee...terrible facing creatures that could only really be hit by magic or ranged weapons (flying stuff) in relation to what things he could do. Half Orc Ranger about bought it this session though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Monk loves his Stunning Fist. Did fine overall with melee...terrible facing creatures that could only really be hit by magic or ranged weapons (flying stuff) in relation to what things he could do. Half Orc Ranger about bought it this session though.

You do realize that it is the rare optimized high-level wizard who can't fly at least 2 different ways, don't you?

 

[Dandu]

The thought occurs: If you're using a fort save or die ability as a metric for how good a mageslayer a class is, wouldn't the best class for mageslaying be one of those classes that gets lots of save or die spells? What are they called again? I swear, the name's on the tip of my tongue..

 

[GreyLord]

You do realize that it is the rare optimized high-level wizard who can't fly at least 2 different ways, don't you?

Yep, Wizard wins initiative and casts Fly? Not my first choice...but then they'd have to win initiative again.

Monk uses abundant step with no fear (since BBEG has already acted this round) to grab or whatever the enemy mage.

If survival occurs...well...Wizard better win initiative first.

Better to cast Polymorph for defense I'd say than fly...but that's just me. Invisibility is better, Mirror Image is better...at least I'd say they were better defenses...

But yes, flying is particularly useful against the Monk, especially with multiple enemies I guess. A wise monk probably would have shurikens against enemies...but the player didn't. I guess he spent all his funds otherwise...

Not my fault, I play fair. PC's and NPC's don't always have everything or know everything they'll face or what will happen one moment to the next...part of roleplaying...though personally I'd have thought it should be obvious that possessing something to attack at range would eventually turn up useful...the player didn't have any of that.

All creatures ended up dead, luckily for the party as a whole (perhaps that's why they decided to tunnel underground after that...now my flying forces can't spot them...or so they think) so BBEG still isn't aware they are coming...but we'll see what happens next session.

 

[GreyLord]

The thought occurs: If you're using a fort save or die ability as a metric for how good a mageslayer a class is, wouldn't the best class for mageslaying be one of those classes that gets lots of save or die spells? What are they called again? I swear, the name's on the tip of my tongue..

Yep, probably the class I'm playing in PF right now for the game I play in.

However, they lack the mobility of the Monk typically and get closed off by others...such as those nasty little fighters or others blocking the way. Means while I'm fighting, they BBEG is buffing.

I guess one could simply ignore the BBEG minions and get hit repeatedly by them while running across to try to encounter the BBEG. Monk at 15th level covers almost 3X (in some instances 4X) the same amount of space in one move though...takes a lot longer and BBEG definately has cast spells before you ever arrive...probably several (at least with my cleric builds, Dex is typically lower on my list of things I concentrate on with stats).

Not fully as capable with all saves as Monk, so easier target practice for BBEG in certain spell areas as well...could buff and then hit you in a weak area as you try to reach the BBEG, saying you can actually Bullrush past his defending henchmen in the first place.

So mage is much better prepared overall, which to me means less of a chance of taking down the Mage.

I suppose you could attack from a far distance, but not as many spell options for the class I'm thinking of then.

For the BBEG, I'd favor the quickstrike before they have a chance to have multiple buffs/defenses up...that's when the spellcaster is weakest.

 

[Dandu]

Yep, Wizard wins initiative and casts Fly? Not my first choice...but then they'd have to win initiative again.

Monk uses abundant step with no fear (since BBEG has already acted this round) to grab or whatever the enemy mage.

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).

Dimension Door
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

Note the bolded, underlined, and green text. It is very important.

Yep, probably the class I'm playing in PF right now for the game I play in.

However, they lack the mobility of the Monk typically and get closed off by others...such as those nasty little fighters or others blocking the way. Means while I'm fighting, they BBEG is buffing.

I guess one could simply ignore the BBEG minions and get hit repeatedly by them while running across to try to encounter the BBEG. Monk at 15th level covers almost 3X (in some instances 4X) the same amount of space in one move though...takes a lot longer and BBEG definately has cast spells before you ever arrive...probably several (at least with my cleric builds, Dex is typically lower on my list of things I concentrate on with stats).

Not fully as capable with all saves as Monk, so easier target practice for BBEG in certain spell areas as well...could buff and then hit you in a weak area as you try to reach the BBEG, saying you can actually Bullrush past his defending henchmen in the first place.

If you were a spellcaster, you could simply cast a fort save or die spell from a hundred or more feet away and eliminate the need to move past people. And have a higher chance of success than a monk using Stunning Fist.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep, Wizard wins initiative and casts Fly? Not my first choice...but then they'd have to win initiative again.

Not my first choice, either, in this context. As I mentioned before, Polymorph via Contingency gets you everything you really need to truly sink the Monk's chances of one-shotting the Mage before the Monk could even land a blow.

The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Some of those types get you crit immunity. Some get you flight. Some radically increase the casters' stats radically. And he could even still cast spells.

And it's not like that's an option that is specifically anti-monk. It's a solid option for Contingency, period.

Besides, what I meant was more than one way besides his own spells. Between their own spells and the items they buy and/or create, there are 3.5Ed Mages that never touch the ground. Some, like Romulans, are only visible when they lob a fireball at you.

Note the bolded, underlined, and green text. It is very important.

To spell it out (which Dandu won't do), once the monk uses abundant step, he can't attack in that same turn. That leaves him standing next to a very unhappy Wizard who CAN.

 

[Arrowhawk]

No, because he still has other spells; he still has items.

The fact that he has items doesn't automatically mean they are the right items. Those items may be for things like Feather Fall or Waterbreathing or all kinds of generic stuff that isn't necessarily going to be of use against any specific threat.

Again...the counter arguments are always "oh no...I thought of that and I have this contingency prepared for it." After a while, it starts to lose credibility.

He just ranked a melee attack from the likes of monks less of a threat than a barrage of magic from a known foe who repeatedly attacked him. To do otherwise would mark him as a fool, and a dead one at that.

I'm not sure what point you are making other than emphasizing the one that Greylord suggested: The monk is like the last thing on his list of things to be prepared for.

So he devotes his 6th and 4th level slots to fending off the entirely expected. He still has 1-3rd and 5th level spells.

But what about those high level Swordsages he's prepared for from another thread, and those Druids from yet another thread? And that Fighter tricked out with all kinds of gear from another thread? Again...every time this stuff gets brought up the Wizard is always prepared for every single threat imaginable, including all the ones ever brought up in the past.

Look at it this way, if you're planning on wandering around in Grizzly Bear territory right after several reported attacks, you will make sure you're prepared as possible to deal with Grizzly Bears. But just because you are maximally prepared for Grizzly Bears doesn't mean you are unprepared for dealing with Wolves.

The Monk isn't a wolf, he's a magical beast. You are focused on animals in the forest and he Abundant Steps from the mountain top.

If you're smart, you're not ONLY prepared for Grizzly Bears- Some of the same tactics will be effective, and some won't be. Because of that, you'll have other tactics and resources designed to deal with more generalized threats.

Well, that's the question isn't it? Exactly how generalized do you think the Monk's tactics are going to be? It's pretty easy to claim the Wizard's always prepared because those spells exist. Whether the Wizard has the right combination prepared for any specific threat is a crucial question. Speculation and supposition aren't going to resolve this.

Actually, go back over the thread, and you'll find the allies thing pops up repeatedly in his posts, such as when he said: He's clearly talking about the Monk going after the Wizard in the context of one or both of them having allies- he expects the Monk to be able to get to the Wiz and kill him solo, with nobody being able to stop him.

Which translates to him fighting the Wizard solo and the wizard not being able to rely on allies for help. As I said...head to head fight so the Wizard's allies are not part of the Wizard's contingency plans.

 

[Dandu]

Well, that's the question isn't it? Exactly how generalized do you think the Monk's tactics are going to be? It's pretty easy to claim the Wizard's always prepared because those spells exist. Whether the Wizard has the right combination prepared for any specific threat is a crucial question. Speculation and supposition aren't going to resolve this.

That's very true. Specific builds, however, might. I have provided my generalist sorcerer and wizard builds. We can take one and see if it is equipped to deal with monks, swordsages, fighters, and druids.

Shall we?

Here is what we can choose from

Level 10:
Evard

Level 13:
Serenity
Rhystion
Imhotep
Thinderella the Necromantic Naturist

Level 15:
Abraxis

Level 20:
Yahtzee
Ozimandias
Rachel
Evilwizardington