Monks are Balanced?

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not sure what point you are making other than emphasizing the one that Greylord suggested: The monk is like the last thing on his list of things to be prepared for.

...because he doesn't need to prepare all that much for a monk in particular.

But what about those high level Swordsages he's prepared for from another thread, and those Druids from yet another thread? And that Fighter tricked out with all kinds of gear from another thread? Again...every time this stuff gets brought up the Wizard is always prepared for every single threat imaginable, including all the ones ever brought up in the past.

Like the Grizzly/Wolf example, the Wiz- indeed, any full caster- probably doesn't need specific spells for too many specific classes/creature types.

A Swordsage, Fighter, or Monk of a given level will be vulnerable to roughly the same suite of options.

The Druid, though, is another full caster, and a full caster vs full caster battle (especially for the core classes) is always going to be a toss up, depending on paritcular builds and the luck of the dice.

Which is why most of the the best options for being a caster-killer are usually found in other casters.

As I said...head to head fight so the Wizard's allies are not part of the Wizard's contingency plans.

Ignoring allies out of hand- on either side- is a mistake. You don't know what their capabilities are. One of them might be able to screw up those DC 25 tumble checks the monk will have to make to get to the Wizard.

But don't take my word for it- take up Dandu's challenge.

 

[Arrowhawk]

.But don't take my word for it- take up Dandu's challenge.

You're assuming I actually care who would win 1v1 battle. I have no dog in this fight. I entered the thread saying this topic amuses me and the pro-Wizard side always makes the same assumptions. You've modified the argument by suggesting the Wizard doesn't even need to prepare for a Monk.

<shrug> If you say so.

 

[GreyLord]

Not my first choice, either, in this context. As I mentioned before, Polymorph via Contingency gets you everything you really need to truly sink the Monk's chances of one-shotting the Mage before the Monk could even land a blow.



Some of those types get you crit immunity. Some get you flight. Some radically increase the casters' stats radically. And he could even still cast spells.

And it's not like that's an option that is specifically anti-monk. It's a solid option for Contingency, period.

Besides, what I meant was more than one way besides his own spells. Between their own spells and the items they buy and/or create, there are 3.5Ed Mages that never touch the ground. Some, like Romulans, are only visible when they lob a fireball at you.



To spell it out (which Dandu won't do), once the monk uses abundant step, he can't attack in that same turn. That leaves him standing next to a very unhappy Wizard who CAN.

So you'll leave a Monk in mid-air. Grabbing something or flexing a hand is actually not a standard action and DM fiat could be seen as a free action.

grabbing to hold onto the mage (saying you didn't impact him and cause 1d6 plus scatter) as I see it is a free action.

Plus as I said, the next round the Mage has to win initiative twice in a row against the Monk who is now in his face.

I'd say his position is actually worse if he casts fly the first round personally. He can't rise up fast enough to escape the Monk in that instance.

Anyways, it's been fun. No one has really come up with a convincing argument in my eyes for roleplaying that the Monk isn't really a magekiller, though a LOT of stuff for Rollplaying/metagamers. That was sort of expected as per my first post...as per the detractors of it...so expected.

Thanks for the comments to all, hopefully for Monk ROLEPLAYERS it's been somewhat insightful, and for the Rollplayers hopefully it's been fun showing what one can do against the Monks or others on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Thanks to all who wrote in the thread, it's appreciated. It went on far longer then I ever expected when I wrote it. Ironically now the BBEG is a Corrupted Druid in the campaign, so I suppose we'll see how the guys do with her next.

 

[Dandu]

You're assuming I actually care who would win 1v1 battle. I have no dog in this fight. I entered the thread saying this topic amuses me and the pro-Wizard side always makes the same assumptions. You've modified the argument by suggesting the Wizard doesn't even need to prepare for a Monk.

Does not need to prepare specifically for the monk. Monks fall into the same general category as rogues and swordsages. Mobile enemies who will try to get past the front lines and attack you. Solutions geared towards that general class of opponent (offhand, tentacle rape, flight, and forcefields) should suffice.

So you'll leave a Monk in mid-air. Grabbing something or flexing a hand is actually not a standard action and DM fiat could be seen as a free action.

grabbing to hold onto the mage (saying you didn't impact him and cause 1d6 plus scatter) as I see it is a free action.

...
Greylord, what does "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." mean?

Plus as I said, the next round the Mage has to win initiative twice in a row against the Monk who is now in his face.

What the... that is not how initiative works. At all. Ever.

I'd say his position is actually worse if he casts fly the first round personally. He can't rise up fast enough to escape the Monk in that instance.

Standard action: cast the Fly spell.
Move action: ascend 15 feet upwards.
Free action: mock the enemy who is not proficient in ranged weapons.

Greylord, do not take this the wrong way, but you seem to have only the vaguest idea about the rules of the game. Feel free to have your opinions and play as you like (free action grappling and everything) but that's not how the game works.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I entered the thread saying this topic amuses me and the pro-Wizard side always makes the same assumptions.

Actually, I'm the monk-ophile, remember? But as Clint Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Simply put, after a certain point, Wizards need not fear Monks any more than any other melee class; they need not take any special measures against them in particular.

You've modified the argument by suggesting the Wizard doesn't even need to prepare for a Monk

Dandu said it already, but I'll echo it: the Mage does not have to prepare anything special for the monk in particular. As I said in the same post you were responding to:

A Swordsage, Fighter, or Monk of a given level will be vulnerable to roughly the same suite of options.

...and as Dandu pointed out, the Rogue.

Generally speaking, they are melee-first, everything else after. Heck, some of the options mentioned- such as the Contingencied Polymorph- will work against any of those classes, but will screw Monks (and Rogues) harder because their biggest bang for the buck not from massive amounts of damage, but from a Special Attack form that the Mage can instantaneously choose to be immune to.

Quote:
So you'll leave a Monk in mid-air. Grabbing something or flexing a hand is actually not a standard action and DM fiat could be seen as a free action.

grabbing to hold onto the mage (saying you didn't impact him and cause 1d6 plus scatter) as I see it is a free action.

1) grabbing a foe is not a free action, it's an attack action. Free actions are delineated in the rules as being speaking, dropping (not throwing/attacking, but letting go of a held item), or falling prone.

2) since it isn't a free action, and- by the terms of the power he's using- he can't do anything after jumping through dimensions like that except, presumably, free actions, he can do nothing besides talk with/shout at the Mage, drop an item, or drop prone.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Actually, I'm the monk-ophile, remember?

I already pointed that out...remember?

Simply put, after a certain point, Wizards need not fear Monks any more than any other melee class; they need not take any special measures against them in particular.***
Dandu said it already, but I'll echo it: the Mage does not have to prepare anything special for the monk in particular.

Which translates to a the Wizard doesn't need to prepare for the "monk." I'm not sure what is being clarified here?

Generally speaking, they are melee-first, everything else after. Heck, some of the options mentioned- such as the Contingencied Polymorph- will work against any of those classes, but will screw Monks (and Rogues) harder because their biggest bang for the buck not from massive amounts of damage, but from a Special Attack form that the Mage can instantaneously choose to be immune to.

So is this another way to say the Wizard doesn't need to prepare for the "monk?"

I think that point was acknowledged in my last post.

 

[Arrowhawk]

So you'll leave a Monk in mid-air. Grabbing something or flexing a hand is actually not a standard action and DM fiat could be seen as a free action.

Actually, you'd probably want to AS above the caster and fall on top of him...then use a Reflex save to grab hold as you fall through the casters square on your turn. The rules allow you to make a reflex save to grab a ledge if you miss the jump, so there's no reason why you couldn't apply that to this situation as well.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Visigani]

Wizard becomes dragon. Monk turns ethereal. Floats into wizards stomach. Returns to material plane. Fights way out (use magnets). Wizard RIP.

You jelly fagicmags?

 

[xigbar]

Wizard becomes dragon. Monk turns ethereal. Floats into wizards stomach. Returns to material plane. Fights way out (use magnets). Wizard RIP.

You jelly fagicmags?

0/10. Lurk moar. On a serious note, the wizard wouldn't become a dragon.

 

[Dandu]

Actually, you'd probably want to AS above the caster and fall on top of him...then use a Reflex save to grab hold as you fall through the casters square on your turn. The rules allow you to make a reflex save to grab a ledge if you miss the jump, so there's no reason why you couldn't apply that to this situation as well.

Just thinking out loud.

Catching Yourself When Falling It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).

There is your reason. You are welcome.

As something of an aside, why is it ok to bend the rules to grapple someone with a reflex save, but not ok to bend the rules and take 10 on Contact Other Plane?

Anyways, since you've just grabbed onto someone, but have not dealt any damage to him or even actually grappled him for that matter, that someone is free to, I don't know, perform some teleportation of his own? Teleportation the Monk can't follow because he just used up his?