Monsters are more than their stats

[katahn]

Point out that it uses a sledgehammer to do the job of a scalpel?

4e is clay? Riiiight. If it were, I'd be camped outside my FLGS waiting for it. High granularity games with lots of things to adjust, fiddle with, tinker, and set are my favorite style; 4e ain't that, as its ardent defenders will happily tell you.

Why do you feel you need to use a sledgehammer or that it is impossible to use a scalpel in making adjustments to monsters or encounters in your campaign? You're right that 4e is not bogged down and drowning in the kind of rules that 3e was, but that still doesn't mean that one loses the ability to make subtle or nuanced changes to things.

I'm curious what benefit you feel you gain from the large and (in my opinion) overly complex and frequently tedious rules in 3e that you simply couldn't mimic in 4e. If anything, the lack of high granularity in 4e, its lack of lots of things to adjust, fiddle with, tinker, and set should make a highly detail oriented DMs life easier instead of harder. More things are left open for you to implement as you see fit.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The magic of handwavium?

I find it interesting that people were afraid to say, "Whatever, she's got +5 Bluff" in 3e, but feel that 4e grants them some new and special power they never had before...

3e let you make changes at-will, as any DM does, but also provided a formal mechanism if you wanted it. The low granularity boolean skills of 4e means it's hard to make a given succubus (or anything else) just a *little* bit different within the rules; if you use the RAW, you can say, "Well, she knows Bluff, but loses Diplomacy" (or whatever). Or you can just, as always, handwave it and add trained skills, but then why bother with rules/guidelines for how many skills should be trained a for a given creature?

The only point where it will really matter fiddling with skills is not if you shift 2 skill points from Bluff to Diplomacy or vice versa.
This degree of granularity will not be noticeable to anyone but those that check your stat-blocks. If you shift 5 ranks, it might make a difference.

Considering that you might have changed from (Bluff 13 ranks, Diplomacy 0) ranks to (Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5), you probably just have weakened the Succubus in both aspects. Against the skill-maxed character, neither skill will do you any good. So you're probably better off switching entirely from Bluff to Diplomacy. Interestingly, this coincides with the way Skill Training in 4E works. You change the total modifier by 5 points, and now have invested in the second skill instead in the first.

 

[Cadfan]

The magic of handwavium?

I find it interesting that people were afraid to say, "Whatever, she's got +5 Bluff" in 3e, but feel that 4e grants them some new and special power they never had before...

I find it strange that people think that

Acrobatic: A succubus receives a racial bonus to Tumble of... crap, I want a +18, and this succubus is a 6 hd monster, so that's 9 ranks, plus 1 for dex mod, so +10. I could give her a feat or two that improves Tumble checks, but I need her feats for other purposes... can I give her Skill Focus: Tumble and drop Persuasive? Nah... she needs the points in Bluff and Diplomacy... I'll just use a racial bonus. There. Ahem. A succubus receives a racial bonus to Tumble of +8.

is superior to

Acrobatics: +18

I guess its only rewarding if you have to work for it.

 

[Lizard]

I guess its only rewarding if you have to work for it.

Which would you rather get? A box containing a jigsaw puzzle or a puzzle someone else already finished and laminated?

 

[Lacyon]

Which would you rather get? A box containing a jigsaw puzzle or a puzzle someone else already finished and laminated?

A book with RPG rules in.

 

[Lizard]

A book with RPG rules in.

Yeah, me too, but unless you call "Make some stuff up" a rule, I think we're both gonna be disappointed...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A book with RPG rules in.

Some analogies limp more then others...

Spoiler

Can you say that in English? It's pretty much literally translated from German. Google Translate seems to agree, but that proves nothing.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah, me too, but unless you call "Make some stuff up" a rule, I think we're both gonna be disappointed...

I thought we were talking about D&D 4E, not some made-up book? I have seen plenty of rules so far that apparently will be found in the new edition.

But in the end, I wouldn't be surprised if you will in fact be disappointed. I would be surprised if I would be disappointed, and - without wanting to give the impression I could speak for him - I don't think Laycon will. There will certainly be stuff that could be better, but I haven't yet seen something that gravely worries me.

 

[Lacyon]

Yeah, me too, but unless you call "Make some stuff up" a rule, I think we're both gonna be disappointed...

Doubtful.

Your analogy posits that you enjoy putting together rules pieces to construct what you want for the game. I enjoy that too, but it is time-intensive and not directly related to the purpose of the product.

Getting a box that contains a constructed (or mostly constructed) "puzzle" that, when finished, can be used to play an RPG is better for people who want to play RPGs than a box containing a unconstructed puzzle. Both of these are ok for people who want to construct an RPG from the parts, as you simply deconstruct the puzzle and rebuild it as you see fit. Some people, like me, prefer both, and for this purpose, the preconstructed puzzle is definitely the best fit.

If it comes pre-laminated, that will be a problem for the second group (and people like me, who want both). But I don't think the puzzle I get will be pre-laminated, and even if it is, I have plenty of unlaminated puzzles already.

 

[Cadfan]

Which would you rather get? A box containing a jigsaw puzzle or a puzzle someone else already finished and laminated?

Yes. This is a perfect analogy. The REAL game of D&D is about skill point allocation for monsters. If that's already done for you, or there's no difficulty or challenge in doing that, you might as well not even play. D&D is about meticulous DM prep work. The game itself, you know, the part with the players? You remember those guys, they're the real people without statblocks? Pointless. Don't know why I bother.

If you'll excuse me, I have to go refine salt from seawater and grind wheat into flour so that I can bake bread, which I will then throw away.