More Keyword mess...

[drquestion]

Actually, where does it say that truesight makes you immune to illusions?

I pointed this out in the other thread, too, but I also don't see anything that says that truesight would make you immune to illusions. It's not like 3e truesight - according to p. 283 of the MM, it just gives you the ability to see invisible things.

Does Dire Radiance or Dread Star have any effect on a Balor (Immune to fear)?

Well, the issue here is deciding what counts as the "fear" part of the effect. The Keywords section of the PHB says that "Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power's other effects" (p. 55).

So, the Balor is immune to the "fear" portions of the power, but not the other portions. The potential problem is that the powers themselves don't necessarily give a breakdown of which effects come from which keywords.

Sometimes, it seems pretty straightforward. Dread Star is radiance and fear, and it does radiant damage, immobilizes, and gives a Will penalty. Clearly, the radiant damage is from the radiant keyword, and it seems like the other two are the fear. So, a balor would take the damage, but wouldn't be immobilized or take a Will penalty.

Dire Radiance is more difficult. It's not clear there what results from the fear and what doesn't. At the other end of the power spectrum, Doom of Delban seems to be in the same boat.

Looking at the definition for the "fear" keyword in PHB isn't much help - it just says "powers that inspire fright." On the other hand, the MM says that fear powers "impose penalties through fright or cause the affected creatures to flee" (p. 281).

By that definition, I suppose one could rule that any numerical penalties, negative conditions (which seem like they ought to count as penalties), or forced movement that comes attached to a power with the fear keyword is the result of the fear, unless the power specifies otherwise, and so should be ignored by creatures immune to fear.

That seems a little tenuous, though, and would also leave us with a position where fear immunity doesn't help at all against powers like Dire Radiance or Doom of Delban, despite their having the keyword.

 

[Bagpuss]

That's the problem I'm having with Keywords. It seemed it would have been great if powers always had a damage keyword, and an other effects keyword.

There are some powers that only have damage keywords but produce other none damaging effects. So clearly the other effects can come from damage in some cases.

There are other powers that have two or more effect keywords (like Fear and Illusion), if you are immune to fear are to immune to the effects or do you need to immune to both keywords in that case?

They haven't been at all consistent with assigning keywords and the PHB section on keywords while useful with damaging keywords gives little or no guidance with other effects.

 

[TimeOut]

As far as I understand the entries in the MM and PHB, resist applies only to damage based on the damage type (10 fire damage, for example).

Immunity sees the power as a whole, a fire immune monster won't suffer any damage and effects from a power that includes "fire" as a keyword. (MM, page 282, "Immune")

 

[webrunner]

The illusion abilities aren't psychic attacks- they do not directly attack the target's mind, or are a direct attack FROM the wizard's mind. They create illusions. These illusions, however, have an effect on the person's psyche, dealing psychic damage.

Thus, it's an Illusion attack that does Psychic damage.

Think of it like this: if a lightning bolt hits a tree, the tree catches on fire. The tree then takes Fire damage, but the lightning bolt itself was not fire.

 

[SableWyvern]

The illusion abilities aren't psychic attacks- they do not directly attack the target's mind, or are a direct attack FROM the wizard's mind. They create illusions. These illusions, however, have an effect on the person's psyche, dealing psychic damage.

Thus, it's an Illusion attack that does Psychic damage.

Think of it like this: if a lightning bolt hits a tree, the tree catches on fire. The tree then takes Fire damage, but the lightning bolt itself was not fire.

OTOH, if your tree was immune to fire (say, because it was made out of asbestos), you would expect it to not burst into flames or take fire damage. The fact that the attack was electrical doesn't change that.

Edit: IOW, if an attack deals psychic damage, it shoud include the Psychic keyword, and be affected by psychic defences.

 

[Bagpuss]

Yes but check page 55 of the PHB.

"Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects. When damage of a power is described as more than one type, divide the damage evenly between the
damage types (round up for the first damage type, round down for all others). For example, a power that deals 25 fire and thunder damage deals 13 fire damage and 12 thunder damage."

Lets assume we have a creature that is Immune to fear and fire.

Case one:
Hit with a power with the Keywords Fire and Thunder, that only does damage. It clearly would only take half damage. From what was said above.

Case two:
Hit by a power with the Keyword Fire only. It does damage but this power also leave the target dazed for one round. Is the still dazed? "Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects" You could read that one of two ways, most logical is that if you are immune to all the keywords then you are immune to the whole power, but it doesn't actually say that.

Case three:
Hit by a power with the Keyword Fire and Conjuration. It does damage but this power also pushes the target 1 square. Is the target still pushed? Sure he's immune to the damage, but is the physical fireball able to push them back? He's not immune to all the keywords.

Case four:
Hit by Long Fall into Darkness, Keywords Arcane, Fear, Illusion, Implement, Psychic.
Hit: 4d8 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the target
is stunned until the end of its next turn and knocked
prone.
Sure he takes the damage, but does immune to fear counter any or all of the other effects?

What if a Tarrasque is hit by Long Fall into Darkness.
Immune charm, fear; Resist 10 to all damage
Say the damage rolled is really low and doesn't overcome his resistance 10. Is it still stunned and knocked prone because it isn't immune to Illusion?

 

[drquestion]

Immunity sees the power as a whole, a fire immune monster won't suffer any damage and effects from a power that includes "fire" as a keyword. (MM, page 282, "Immune")

Yes, but the PHB section on keywords makes it pretty clear that a keyword might only apply to a specific "subsection" of a power. So, a creature might be immune to some, but not all, effects of a power. A very clear example of this is Prismatic Spray - a creature immune to poison would ignore the poison damage and slow effect, even if its Fort save was hit. It wouldn't ignore the fire or stun. The description doesn't spell it out, but the power has the fear keyword, so the Will portion (stunning) would presumably be a fear effect, and a creature immune to fear would ignore it.

Glancing through the warlock and wizard powers, it looks like for most of the powers with multiple keywords, it shouldn't be too hard to make a reasonable ruling as to what comes from where. The biggest problems are things like Dire Radiance and Doom of Delban, which only really have one effect, but have multiple keywords.

 

[drquestion]

Lets assume we have a creature that is Immune to fear and fire.

Case one:
Hit with a power with the Keywords Fire and Thunder, that only does damage. It clearly would only take half damage. From what was said above.

Right, this is clear.

Case two:
Hit by a power with the Keyword Fire only. It does damage but this power also leave the target dazed for one round. Is the still dazed? "Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects" You could read that one of two ways, most logical is that if you are immune to all the keywords then you are immune to the whole power, but it doesn't actually say that.

Well, if fire is the only keyword, then the dazing must be the result of the fire. So, p. 282 of the MM should apply, and the target wouldn't be dazed. This seems pretty clear, too.

Case three:
Hit by a power with the Keyword Fire and Conjuration. It does damage but this power also pushes the target 1 square. Is the target still pushed? Sure he's immune to the damage, but is the physical fireball able to push them back? He's not immune to all the keywords.

Again, this seems pretty clear. He's immune to the damage because it's fire. There's only one other effect, and there's only one other keyword, so, logically, the push must be the result of the conjuration, so he's not immune and gets pushed.

Case four:
Hit by Long Fall into Darkness, Keywords Arcane, Fear, Illusion, Implement, Psychic.
Hit: 4d8 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the target
is stunned until the end of its next turn and knocked
prone.
Sure he takes the damage, but does immune to fear counter any or all of the other effects?

This kind of effect is where it gets complicated. I agree, it's not clear, but the DM is going to have to make a judgment call. It seems reasonable to assign the proneness to the illusion (because he thinks he just fell down a pit) and the stun to the fear (he's too afraid to do anything during his next turn).

So, I'd say, he takes the damage and falls prone, but isn't stunned. It seems like that would be a reasonable interpretation of both the RAW and the power.

What if a Tarrasque is hit by Long Fall into Darkness.
Immune charm, fear; Resist 10 to all damage
Say the damage rolled is really low and doesn't overcome his resistance 10. Is it still stunned and knocked prone because it isn't immune to Illusion?

Well, with my interpretation, he'd be prone, but not stunned.

All this would obviously be much easier if conditions and other non-damaging effects came with keyword riders in the way that damage does (so a power would say, e.g. 1d6+Int fire damage, target is immobilized [fear] until the end of your next turn). Since they don't, it's going to have to be up to the DM to make a reasonable judgment.

 

[Jagdcarcajou]

What if a Tarrasque is hit by Long Fall into Darkness.
Immune charm, fear; Resist 10 to all damage
Say the damage rolled is really low and doesn't overcome his resistance 10. Is it still stunned and knocked prone because it isn't immune to Illusion?

Heya,

This is exactly the same question I sent to WotC customer support last week. Star Pact warlocks looked screwed with all the Fear keyword powers, so I asked:

"The Keywords section is fairly clear about how to handle Immunity abilities with regard to damage. How to handle immunivy vs. Effect is still very unclear though.

As an example, the Warlock Paragon power "Long Fall Into Darkness" has the damage keyword Psychic, and two Effect keywords - Illusion and Fear. If I cast this at a Tarasque which is immune to Fear, what happens after the damage? Does the tarasque fall for the Illusion part, so is affected, or does the Immunity to Fear render the entire effect null?

Any help is appreciated. Star pact warlocks could be in for a lot more trouble than the other two if fear immunity totally blocks powers with multiple effect keywords."

After getting one reply saying they needed to escalate the issue, I then got a second reply that quoted the damage immunity rule. I pointed out how unhelpful that was, and got this as a final reply:

"The rules do not cover this situation. In this case, it is up to your DM to make a decision as to what exactly happens.

Please write us back if you require any further assistance."

So at this point, I am ruling that Long Fall Into Darkness damages Mr. Tarasque, but has no further effect. As for Doom of Delban, since the effect of the power is only cold damage it would have full effect on the Tarasque. It is my assumption that WotC included these keywords on Star pact powers to give them benefits through Feats, Paragon Paths etc. without considering what would happen when they were used on critters that were immune to Fear, as the rules are completely unclear here.

Chris

 

[Bagpuss]

Glancing through the warlock and wizard powers, it looks like for most of the powers with multiple keywords, it shouldn't be too hard to make a reasonable ruling as to what comes from where.

But the point is they could have easily cleared it up by linking the keywords to the effects, like in Prismatic Spray, as it is it seems to be up to the individual DM.

WotC Customer support seems to confirm that's the case.