More on martial arts in d20 Modern

[JPL]

Just cross-posting some comments I made on the Game Mechanics board regarding their upcoming Martial Arts Mayhem...


1. I'm not satisfied with the current rules as far as brawler v. martial artist. Maybe a brawler feat that kept you from taking those AoO every time you tried to punch a ninja?

2. I assume you have this covered...a Street Fighter advanced class? Those Def Jam Vendetta commercials have got me thinking about a full-blown urban tournament fighter game...anyway, a class which let Brawlers develops their skills just like Martial Artists.

3. Glad to see a Martial Arts Weapons proficiency. Maybe this could be a number of separate feats to handle different styles? Kung Fu Weapons, Escrima Weapons, Improvised Weapons, Ninja Weapons, Fencing Weapons, etc. Each group could include a mix of archaic and exotic weapons, as appropriate. In fact, this might be a Martial Artist class feature you could swap in for Flying Kick.

4. Some new basic class talents would be useful. I'm thinking something like Evaluate Opponent for Dedicated Hero, which would let you scope out another person's technique...or I suppose one could adopt the Sense Motive rules from Oriental Adventures, and martial artists with Dedicated Hero ranks could take Skill Focus [Sense Motive] to give them an edge.

5. For tournament fighter games, maybe a rule to emulate the fact that after an epic mano-y-mano throwdown, no one seems worse for wear when the next fight starts.

6. I'd like to see Military Close Combat as a style. I've been putting together some sample 6th level martial arts characters, and Strong Hero 3 / Sodlier 2 / Martial Artist 1 turns out to be surprisingly effective.

 

[Vigilance]

Got you covered

Blood and Fists- coming in April from RPGObjects and written by...

wait for it...

me!

Does everything you just asked for

Sense Motive allows you to size up your opponent.

Commando Training is a Martial Arts Style (one of 40 real world styles in the book).

School of Hard Knocks is a martial arts Style representing Brawling to the form of "art".

The Bad-Ass Barroom Brawler is an advanced class in the game.

There is a complete tournament in the game- complete with pre-gen NPCs.

And there are half a dozen new Archaic Weapons Groups- Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Samurai, Indonesian (for Escrima), and Indian.

Hate to toot my own horn, but since this product will hit the streets in less than four weeks and does everything you just asked for, I thought I'd chime in

And- take a look at this cool as all holy heck cover!

http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?page=pro&product_id=21

 

[JPL]

And the e-book comes out on my birthday.

Sold. Happy birthday, JPL.

Tell some more, sir.

 

[Vigilance]

Well let's see- its going to introduce a few new kinds of feats to the mix-

Advanced Classes- three of these are added to the mix- the Bad Ass Barroom Brawler is insane- wild- unpredictable- with the ability to kick his opponents when their down with a lot of dirty tricks up his sleeve.

The Contemplative Master focuses on the spiritual side of the martial arts presented in the book- he gains Zen, Pressure Point, and Ki abilities.

The Martial Arts Master is an alternative to the standard Martial Artist- he gains Mastery abilities tied to his individual style (meaning- that a martial arts master of Aikido and a Martial Arts Master of Karate will be almost unrecognizable).

One of the other ways this class differs from that presented in Modern is that it assume the Martial Artist comes from the Fast Hero, rather than the Strong or Tough hero.

Style Feats- these are the basic training in the style- you're going to get over 40 of these- they are all 100% compatible with d20 Modern- these roughly correspond to Improved Combat Martial arts. All of these require either Brawling, or Combat Martial Arts, or Defensive Martial Arts, or an Archaic Weapon Proficiency. You can get into a style with only one prerequisite feat however.

Maneuver Feats- these roughly correspond to such feats as Combat Throw in d20 Modern. In fact, all of the maneuver feats in Modern, such as Combat Throw, are still in play.

Ki Feats- these add a new element of FX to your Modern games.

Signature Feats- these are maneuvers unique to each specific style, and are included to add more color to the styles. These let you do things you can ONLY pull off if you have some skill in a certain style. For instance, if you want to use the exotic one-legged stance of the White Crane- that's a signature maneuver.

Martial Arts Mastery- this is the area of the sourcebook I might be the proudest of. With two advanced classes and these mastery abilities- you can simulate a martial arts master tailored to all 40 individual styles in the game- with 2 classes.

So the GM doesnt feel left out- the book ends with a discussion of Martial Arts Campaign themes- these differ from Campaign Models (like Shadow Chasers) in that a theme is something that can come and go in the midst of a campaign- such as the Tournament- which forms the other component of my GM's section- the Hanmei.

the Hanmei is a tournament run by a shadowy Yakuza clan- supposedly just for gambling and entertainment. But if that's true, why are both the CIA and Chinese Internal Security determined to close it down?

Any questions? I'd be happy to answer any

 

[Vigilance]

And you can see the cover to Blood and Fists here

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46283

 

[JPL]

Sounds great. I look forward to it.

Forty styles, eh? That oughta hold me. And you can be a Martial Arts Master in any of these? Excellent.

How does the Martial Artist fit into the picture with all of these different options? More of a generalist?

How did you address the brawler v. martial artist problem, where the street fighter keeps taking AoO?

 

[takyris]

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I hope that this isn't an overpowered fanboy wannabe deal. I hope that this doesn't result in there being no reason to take the Strong Hero class. I hope that a Fast3/Martial Arts Master10 isn't more powerful than a Strong3/MA10.

Because, really, there's nothing quite as annoying as a Fast-Hero worshipper who a) complains about how hard it is for him to get into the Martial Artist class and then b) makes his own class, which is completely overpowered and does everything that the Martial Artist class did, only more effectively, plus you can wear a killer black trenchcoat while doing it.

As for the Brawler in a tournament fight, I'd peg that as being Martial Arts, rather than Brawling. Having the Brawler spend one feat on Combat Martial Arts means that he never suffers an AoO while attacking, whether he's attacking to knock out or to kill.

I would be interested in seeing martial artist concepts Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic heroes, but I will be heartily angry if they result in a character who can do more damage than a Strong/MA of the same level. Because that's the trade. The Strong/MA should be the best Damage Dealer in town. He doesn't have the flashiest, coolest-sounding stuff because he's the one who actually hits for the most damage in the game, and he doesn't NEED flashy, cool-sounding stuff.

-Tacky

 

[JPL]

As for the Brawler in a tournament fight, I'd peg that as being Martial Arts, rather than Brawling. Having the Brawler spend one feat on Combat Martial Arts means that he never suffers an AoO while attacking, whether he's attacking to knock out or to kill.

-Tacky

Is that AoO an official ruling? It certainly makes sense to me.

I see CMA/DMA and Brawling are representing two different approaches to combat --- one rooted in a formal system, one practical and simplified. But a master brawler should be able to go toe-to-toe with a master martial artist. There are no superior styles, only superior fighters.

Right now, there are some interesting quirks...the Brawler can do lethal damage by taking a -4, meaning he connects less often...but when he connects, he can do some serious damage. Or he can stick with nonlethal and try for the KO.

Now we just need some good grappling options, since there are legions of Brazilian guys out there waiting to break your arm and put you in a sleeper hold...

 

[JPL]

As for the Brawler in a tournament fight, I'd peg that as being Martial Arts, rather than Brawling. Having the Brawler spend one feat on Combat Martial Arts means that he never suffers an AoO while attacking, whether he's attacking to knock out or to kill.

-Tacky

Is that AoO an official ruling? It certainly makes sense to me.

I see CMA/DMA and Brawling are representing two different approaches to combat --- one rooted in a formal system, one practical and simplified. But a master brawler should be able to go toe-to-toe with a master martial artist. There are no superior styles, only superior fighters.

Right now, there are some interesting quirks...the Brawler can do lethal damage by taking a -4, meaning he connects less often...but when he connects, he can do some serious damage. Or he can stick with nonlethal and try for the KO.

Now we just need some good grappling options, since there are legions of Brazilian guys out there waiting to break your arm and put you in a sleeper hold...

 

[takyris]

As for the AoO being an official ruling, I was not unaware of there being anything unofficial about it. Take CMA, and you no longer provoke an AoO when attacking. Period.

I see CMA/DMA and Brawling are representing two different approaches to combat --- one rooted in a formal system, one practical and simplified. But a master brawler should be able to go toe-to-toe with a master martial artist. There are no superior styles, only superior fighters.

I respectfully disagree. I personally consider any good martial art to be practical and simplified. It's just that as you get higher, your version of "simplified" gets more and more interesting. If someone throws a right punch at me, it's simple and practical for me to catch their arm and pummel them repeatedly.

I see this situation as one where people are getting too caught up in the names of the feats, rather than what the feat actually does. Brawl does not mean that your character is a bar-room drunk. It means that your character has mastered the art of delivering nonlethal damage. Sure, bar-room drunks tend to be good at this, but so do boxers. A good boxer has CMA in order to strike for lethal damage without a penalty (although few situations result in actual death in the ring) and Brawl to try for one-shot knockouts. Forget what it's named. Look at what it does.

Brawl != Boxing
Brawl != Uncivilized fighting style
Brawl != More practical and simple

Brawl is a fighting style that allows for one-shot knockouts with no risk of permanent injury or death. That's it. It CAN be any of the above things, but it does not HAVE to be.

And a master brawler should not be able to go toe-to-toe with a master martial artist. That's silly -- you're elevating brawling into some sort of superior combat art. In effect, you're making Informal Brawling into a martial art -- and that means that in d20 Modern, your Informal Brawler would take the CMA feat, NOT Brawl. I heartily agree with you that a Martial Artist with Brawl can be very effective, but that's what that character is -- a Martial Artist with Brawl. Turning Brawl into something more than that is just making the system more complicated than it needs to be.

By the same token, CMA can mean:

* Studied under a master in a dojo
* Took police self-defense training
* Self-taught, survived fights on the street

Stop concentrating on the NAME of the feat. Look at what the feat actually DOES. Remember that the game, for the most part, takes place in the mutual imagination of the players, and you can say, "Bob delivers a crisp side kick," "Bob gets his guard up, waits for an opening, and then kicks his opponent in the groin," or "Baring his teeth in a feral growl, Bob curls his fingers into claws and lashes out, trying to tear his enemy's throat out." In each case, it's 1d20+BAB+Str, for 1d4+Str damage.

-Tacky