Most Valued Attribute

[Thanee]

As I expected, consitution won out.

As expected, really, and as I said in the other thread. Con is good for everyone. Noone dumps Con to 8.

The often decried Intelligence did not finish first, that spot belongs to Charisma.

Well, it depends on the classes composition of the sample, which abilities are dumped, of course. If you take one of each build (i.e. two of each PHB class), or a multiple thereof, you will get a better sample, I think.

Int and Cha are the most likely contenders, however.

Their main effect (Defenses) is also gained from the other ability they are grouped with (i.e. Dex and Wis) and in both cases, that other ability offers more to the average PC (Dex = Initiative; Wis = Perception).

This is, BTW, the same for Str and Con with Con winning out (Con = Healing Surges), unless you are a meleer that uses Str for the attacks (Fighter, TWF-Ranger, Warlord, etc) or important secondary effects (i.e. Brawny-Rogue), or you really get some use out of melee basic attacks.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mistwell]

To clarify, my cleric does have 15 con.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

To clarify, my cleric does have 15 con.
I took it for plate proficiency, which is awesome, and not for the hit points and surges.

That's one point worthy of note Armor Profs need some degree of CON, so many players invest a bit in CON to get a better armor. So they have either 13 or 15 CON not only for the HP or extra surges/etc.

In most cases I'd choose INT or CHA as a dump stat, if I didn't need it for anything.

 

[Smeelbo]

Please don't flame me, but one thing that EverQuest taught me was that hit points rule. I observed there that the leading cause of character death was insufficient hit points, or looking at it another way, hit points = stupidity resistance. I made millions of GP in the bazaar selling HP gear, and the best way to twink a new character was HP gear. Now I realize that EverQuest is a different game from 4E, but 4E is definitely informed by MMORPGs, including EverQuest.

There is no doubt that Hit Points are central to 4E's mechanics. Class balance depends in large part on differences in hitpoints and healing surges. Notice that Twin Weapon Fighting Style rangers get Toughness as a bonus feat, and not Two Weapon Fighting. Look at all the print devoted to temporary hitpoints.

One more CON bonus means one more healing surge, means an additional quarter of my base HP's worth of fightability per day. I'll take at least one, and if I had a larger point buy, I'd at least look at squeezing another CON bonus out of it.

Yes, I did learn from EverQuest that Damage Per Second (DPS) rules, and it does in 4E as well. We do what we can to boost it, mostly pluses to attack rolls, and to a lesser extent, pluses to damage rolls, but that only goes so far.

Well, another lesson learned from EQ is kiting, that is damaging melee focused creatures at a distance, so that HP and AC matter less. But as anyone who has kited has learned to their regret, sometimes things just go wrong, and HP is your insurance against things going wrong. The more HP you have, the bigger blunder you can withstand and recover from.

I think this applies to 4E as well.

My gut tells me never to play a 4E character with less than 12 CON, and I think my gut is right.

Assuming you used all your healing surges in a day, here are the total HP available for 10, 12 and 14 CON starting PHB character classes (Base HP + Surge Value * Surges Per Day):

Cleric: 57/72/ 80
Fighter: 79/87/106
Paladin: 85/93/113
Ranger: 52/66/ 74, or 63/78/87 Twin Blade
Rogue: 52/66/ 74
Warlock: 52/66/ 74, but CON tends higher
Warlord: 57/72/ 80
Wizard: 50/57/ 72

For all classes, a CON of 12 or higher is much better. Knowing that you could step on a booby trap, get shot by a sniper, or have a poisonous gas cloud dumped on you at a moment's notice, who wouldn't want to have the most insurance they could afford?

If it was you, and not just your character, you'd choose more HP every chance you got.

That being said, the Array/Point Buy system insures that there trade offs must be made. Attack is mostly much better than defense, and certainly more fun, but I consider a CON score of 12 to be the minimum playable, and am always tempted by the prospect of a higher CON.

I have not yet played a back rank character, like a Warlock, Wizard or Archer Style Ranger, but I suspect that regardless, damage is the most common danger any character faces, and a good referee will stress the back rank whenever possible.

Make Mine Hit Points!
Smeelbo

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Smeelbo your point is that CON schould be the best stat for every class after it has placed points in its primary, secondary and whatever follows stat?

Your statement that more HP are better for every class is true indeed.


Nothing wrong with that, but you have to consider that sometimes you want to take a feat that requires CHA or something else and you can't afford those extra points in CON.

So to say, it is never wrong to put some unused points into CON if you have no idea what to do with them.

 

[Thanee]

Also, the healing surges offer even more hit points, since in almost all cases you will get a bonus to your healing surge value (cleric/warlord/etc).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Smeelbo]

My point is that CON is an important stat for every class, and that whatever else you do with your stats, be sure to make room for a decent CON.

I really like the results of the Point Buy system, especially the base 22 point buys. It forces hard choices, and results in characters that aren't good at everything, and indeed, have distinct flaws. Rolled characters predominate in 3.x, and I got pretty sick of uber-characters who excelled at many things, and were pretty good everywhere else. In contrast, the point buy stats seem much more fair to everyone.

Of course the higher the point buy, the easier the trade-offs become, and the overall better the characters are. While some may prefer higher point buys so they can utilize broader combinations with their character build, I'll stick to what I can build with 22 points.

That said, my actual favorite stat is Dexterity.

As for the extreme offense-centered builds, like DanceOfMasks brags about, are these really being done with 22-point buys, and if so, do they really work as advertised? Are combats really reliably so short that a super-offense kills fast enough to mask low HP? If so, why isn't the DM pushing on their weaknesses, and not just playing against their strengths?

I understand the basic philosophy of min-maxing. Maximize abilities aimed at a sub-set of tactics while minimizing the consequences of your vulnerabilities, ideally so it is all pay-off and no pay back.

While this can work well in the short term, I have a hard time believing it is viable in a long term campaign setting, especially if the referee stops handing them gift baskets of fruit (encounters that play to their strengths) and instead challenges their vulnerabilities. And if it is being done with higher point buys, then I am much less impressed.

My preference is for more rounded characters, with both strengths and flaws, but with a broader variety of options, rather than just mashing the MAX button repeatedly. I understand the sheer joy of demonstrating the effectiveness of a maximized build, and I do maximize subsets of my characters abilities, but I prefer a character who can survive and triumph under a broader range of circumstances. This is a matter of choice and style, though.

Smeelbo

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The real min-maxing of 4e is coordinating powers.

Even rounded characters have 18 in their primary 90% of the time so the all-offense character that Dance is talking about basically has 20 instead of 18 to primary. +1 to hit and damage compensated by -6 points to invest elsewhere and therefore weaker defenses overall.

You hit 10% more often on average but probably get disabled more often since your non-primary defenses are lower and the effect of getting hit on these defenses is usually worse than on AC.

This likely becomes more obvious and punitive in paragon and epic level where non-AC defense gets targeted more than in Heroic, as demonstrated by that guy who compiled a crazy amount of stats from the MM.

 

[hafrogman]

What's really interesting is that a similar (but not nearly as complete) survey of characters from the 3.X Living ENWorld reveals a totally different order.

50 Samples, the first 50 characters that were either under 4th level or had clear enough tracking that I could find their level 1 stats. . .

STR: 12.10
DEX: 13.94
CON: 12.20
INT: 12.98
WIS: 12.12
CHA: 12.04

Back when constitution was (supposedly) the undisputed king of D&D, it was back in the pack. Four of the six stats are all bunched together, with Int nearly one point up and Dex all the way up near 14.

Personally I think that Con was a little too important in 3.X, and just about a nice level now. If you want to play a smaller, skinny character, you don't need to shoehorn in a 14-16 con just to be survivable.

 

[Herschel]

Well, though con helps, I have to disagree with you strongly.
Hit points are a delaying mechanic.
You win fights by eliminating your opposition, and the faster you do it, the less surges you need.

For most builds, all con does is give you a little more time to achieve your goals.
Having bigger guns works just fine.

It definitely can.

I like to have decent stats in at least one of each defense type. If I have a fighter, I'm likely dumping Int OR Dex and Wis OR Cha. If I have a mage, see ya Str and a 10 will be in Wis or Cha and possibly Dex. It all depends on the build.

I do think Con is in some ways the most "useful" stat because every class gets a positive from it.