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Level Up (A5E) My concern about the fighter.

Kozos

Explorer
I don't want to digress. One of my issues with the 5e fighter is that until level 11 where they get their third attack they are practically inferior versions of the paladin, the ranger and the barbarian unless they go battlemaster. Everything that they can the three aforementioned classes can do better. The ranger gets more reliable damage with hunter's mark plus some cool spells that are great at supporting the team (pass without trace anyone?) plus they are very good at the exploration pillar as much as it isn't there. The paladin might not have action surge but has heal, superior saves for the self and the team as well as a strong social game. I am not even bringing up the smites. The barbarian on the other hand gets rage which improves both offence and defence, a larger hp pool and some nice ribbon stuff. Hell even the blades bard can pretty much use their inspiration dice as superior battlemaster maneuvers. My concern is that this seems to be the case with the Level up fighter too. Thus far, barbarians have been buffed, rangers too have been buffed and all of them gain access to the fighter's maneuvers too albeit at a slightly slower pace. Am I missing something here? Has the fighter been further buffed. I strongly believe that the fighter should be like 10% or so superior in the combat pillar compared to other classes that have other things going on for them and can interact with the other two pillars in a more meaningful way.
 

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From a quick glance:

FeatureFighterRangerBerserker
Hit Dice1d101d101d12
ArmorL, M, H, SL, M, SL, M, S
WeaponsS, MS, MS, M
Tools-1-
SavesSTR, CONSTR, DEXSTR, CON
Skills234
Knacks at 10th375
Manevuvers at 10th7 (degree 3)6 (degree 3)6 (degree 3)
New Maneuver Degrees At1, 4, 82, 5, 92, 5, 9

So yeah I'd agree the fighter might need a little boost. I always thought the Fighter should be the one with all the hit points, not the barbarian. They get more maneuvers, get them earlier, and access new degree levels earlier. Can't speak for level 11-20 though!
 

leonardozg

Because I'm the DM
Fighter needs a big boost. Hit dice is not the proper fix, a change from d10 to d12 is a +1hp/lvl, it's gone in the first enemy hit!
Fighters should be by far the best in fighting. My homemade fighter have damage reduction from Con mod, add half prof. bonus in attack and damage with weapons he has proficiency and add Wis mod. to attack and damage of OAs, to start.
I think it was a mistake in 5e to balance all classes regarding fight, classes are not balanced in spells, exploration and so.
 

Horwath

Hero
from what I see, it's the Ranger that got the "#$% here not the fighter.

Beserker having more skills by default than ranger?
Sure ranger gets more knacks, but most of them are rubbish in comparison to barbarians or even fighters.
Con save is better than dex overall,

main thing here to balance is maneuvers vs knacks vs skills.

or... just delete all martial classes and have a common chassis for fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins as a "Warrior" and just have archetypes and selection of skills/knacks/maneuvers have the defining direction of a character.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
or... just delete all martial classes and have a common chassis for fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins as a "Warrior" and just have archetypes and selection of skills/knacks/maneuvers have the defining direction of a character.
That wouldn’t really be 5E then though. This is advanced 5E, not 6E.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Fighter needs a big boost. Hit dice is not the proper fix, a change from d10 to d12 is a +1hp/lvl, it's gone in the first enemy hit!
Fighters should be by far the best in fighting. My homemade fighter have damage reduction from Con mod, add half prof. bonus in attack and damage with weapons he has proficiency and add Wis mod. to attack and damage of OAs, to start.
I think it was a mistake in 5e to balance all classes regarding fight, classes are not balanced in spells, exploration and so.
I think we might need to wait till we see the new weapons and armor to get a good feel for things the martial classes need & how much they need it. Lets say that there are martial weapons/armor that give you your fighter level in a bonus to exertion pool or there are other mechanical boons that make a big difference.
 

leonardozg

Because I'm the DM
I think we might need to wait till we see the new weapons and armor to get a good feel for things the martial classes need & how much they need it. Lets say that there are martial weapons/armor that give you your fighter level in a bonus to exertion pool or there are other mechanical boons that make a big difference.
These is the kind of solution I like, but I think these boons should be available only to fighters because everyone can use weapons and armors, at some cost.
 

Stalker0

Legend
From a quick glance:

FeatureFighterRangerBerserker
Hit Dice1d101d101d12
ArmorL, M, H, SL, M, SL, M, S
WeaponsS, MS, MS, M
Tools-1-
SavesSTR, CONSTR, DEXSTR, CON
Skills234
Knacks at 10th375
Manevuvers at 10th7 (degree 3)6 (degree 3)6 (degree 3)
New Maneuver Degrees At1, 4, 82, 5, 92, 5, 9

So yeah I'd agree the fighter might need a little boost. I always thought the Fighter should be the one with all the hit points, not the barbarian. They get more maneuvers, get them earlier, and access new degree levels earlier. Can't speak for level 11-20 though!
Berserker gets heavy armor with one of its options, and probably an option that will see a fair amount of use.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
These is the kind of solution I like, but I think these boons should be available only to fighters because everyone can use weapons and armors, at some cost.
Yea I could see various weapons changing the exertion cost of different maneuvers/maneuver groups or whatever but personally I rather miss crit range crit multiplier and maybe even tge 4e brutal # as well
 

Horwath

Hero
That wouldn’t really be 5E then though. This is advanced 5E, not 6E.
Why not?
If you keep the same proficiency bonuses, base HD of d10 or d12. Extra attack at 5th level, fighting style at 1st, two proficient saves at start, etc...

Ranger is now spell-less(good choice IMHO), I guess then Paladin will go the same way.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Ultimately my worries are:

  1. The Ranger is losing spells and gaining fighters stuff in place.
  2. The Berserker is getting nature features as well as combat versatility
  3. So the Ranger might start becoming a better Fighter (within it's combat specialty)
  4. The Berserker might start becoming a better Ranger as it gains skills whereas the Ranger tilts to combat.
  5. The Fighter therefore only shines in fighting styles Berserkers, Paladins, and Rangers lack which is...????
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Ultimately my worries are:

  1. The Ranger is losing spells and gaining fighters stuff in place.
  2. The Berserker is getting nature features as well as combat versatility
  3. So the Ranger might start becoming a better Fighter (within it's combat specialty)
  4. The Berserker might start becoming a better Ranger as it gains skills whereas the Ranger tilts to combat.
  5. The Fighter therefore only shines in fighting styles Berserkers, Paladins, and Rangers lack which is...????
Are you talking about exploration knacks that everyone gets?
 




Faolyn

Hero
Ultimately my worries are:

  1. The Ranger is losing spells and gaining fighters stuff in place.
  2. The Berserker is getting nature features as well as combat versatility
  3. So the Ranger might start becoming a better Fighter (within it's combat specialty)
  4. The Berserker might start becoming a better Ranger as it gains skills whereas the Ranger tilts to combat.
  5. The Fighter therefore only shines in fighting styles Berserkers, Paladins, and Rangers lack which is...????
Your job (if you choose to accept it) is to make a ranger, berserker, and fighter using the LU rules, and decide for yourself if there is too much overlap.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
They don't all have the same knacks or maneuvers
That's uh what I'm saying.
Skills are easily swapped and gained.
Knacks are low tier or skill related.

So the classes feel, to me, like the 3 classes overlap a lot and the main differences are their maneuver suites and their main combat mechanic.
 



Horwath

Hero
Don’t let the name fool you, knacks are not created equal among classes. Ranger knacks can be very strong for example.
only ranger knack that is "strong" is See the unseen. It's still missing what kind of time is needed to get that vision.
a useful 5th level ability that last an hour.

the rest... too week, too circumstantial and most need 3 weeks to start working.
and comparing to beserkers, fighters and even rogues, just worse.
 

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