My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

[dead]

It also depend on what god the paladin follows.

If his god is a god of LG god of War and Chivalry, maybe he does kill wrong-doers he deems evil on the spot.

If his god is a god of LG Peace and Reason, then he probably subdues wrong-doers and makes them stand trial.

 

[Dragonblade]

Wow. I agree with EVERYTHING Shark had to say on what it is to be a Paladin. (Except that he's being the tiniest bit hard on them about the sexual relations - a Paladin may enter into any relationship of the flesh that is entered into in complete understanding and honesty, and does not violate the more specific laws of his god.)

So, where is this guy, anyway?

SHARK used to be a regular but hasn't posted on EN world for about a year or so. He is a very eloquent writer. His long posts about D&D (especially paladins) inspired a lot of people, including myself. They also polarized board members into two camps.

Those who felt paladins were glorified social workers or some sort of fantasy cop subject to modern notions of jurisprudence.

And those who felt paladins should be Holy Warriors, ordained by their gods to bring righteous war against the forces of darkness!

The first camp hates SHARK's paladins. I love SHARK's paladins!

 

[Celtavian]

re

I see alot of rule and philosophical arguments in this thread, yet alot of folks seem to be ignoring that this Paladin became enraged, pure and simple. I know at times that D&D is a hard thing to view as emotional, but I really picture this Paladin coming upon the situation and just becoming utterly enraged.

Can a Paladin become enraged at an act so despicabl vile and evil that he can't control himself? Is that a good reason to take away his Paladin powers if he has served faithfully and honorably up to this point? I don't think that it is a good reason.

Paladins are still human. They are allowed to exhibit rage. What holy warrior worth a damn wouldn't be enraged to come upon such a sight? Some may control themselves better, but I hardly think that most would not do the same thing.

It's really a question of how understanding is the deity towards one of his Paladin servants who lost his temper at the sight of such an extremely evil act? I just don't see any particular good deity in the Forgotten Realms being all the unhappy with this Paladin's act of raging justice. Slap on the hand bad at worst for losing his temper.

It's not even a question of honor. The man had no honor. He was a child molester. He was beneath contempt and was dealt with like a piece a vermin. Why would the Paladin in anyway conduct himself as though this man were deserving of the honor of face to face combat?

A great example of a Knight treating an oppnent differently because of the person's nature is when Launcelot killed Sir Bruce sans Pit the rapist. Launcelot defeated him and didn't even offer mercy as he would an honorable knight. He unlaced his helm and beheaded the scum without even a fight. I think Sir Bruce fell from his horse while being chased. Launcelot never intended to give Sir Bruce an honorable fight. He never intended to grant Sir Bruce mercy. Sir Bruce was a rapist, and the only thing he was going to receive was death at the first available opportunity even if he was on his knees begging for mercy.

 

[Agemegos]

Look, in FR the Paladins are noted to be the Judge, Jury and Executioner of Divine Law. Thus due process was observed because all were present in the form of a single Paladin.

The judge and jury were present, but they didn't do their job. The judge didn't public demonstrate a due process and fair trial. The jury didn't hear the defence or impartially consider the evidence.

Evidence? The guy was caught as red handed as possible!

Not quite, fortunately. But red-handed enough.

So why this unseemly haste to make sure that he died before he could talk?

Why make sure he is dead before the public could hear what he might have to say?

This smacks of a cover-up. It brings the law into disrepute. It promotes suspicion and discourages trust in justice. It encourages feuding.

It is irregular, undisciplined, and relies on the personal over the institutional. It is Chaotic.

Paladins aren't defense attorneys for the bad guys.

Neither are judges nor juries.

The burden is on the enemy to not stand before a little girl with wang out talking about lessons.

Indeed. And this guy deserved everything his got. But from the Lawful point of view the community deserved more.

For the Paladin in capital cases the divine law is the best option. Secular courts come in to play when capital punishment isn't an option and Paladin isn't intrested in building a cell for the perps.

Okay, fine. By all means let the paladin institute an ecclesiastical court consisting of himself. But let it proceed Lawfully, in public, by a due process. A divine law that proceeds in secret, without formal process, judges on superficial appearance without performing any investigation, does not allow any defence to be presented, and has a 'jury' consisting of a "GUILTY!" stamp is going to commit gross injustices, even though this may not have been one of them. And even if it didn't convict any considerable number of innocent people, it would never be able to create a lawful attitude in any community.

 

[Dragonblade]

It's really a question of how understanding is the deity towards one of his Paladin servants who lost his temper at the sight of such an extremely evil act? I just don't see any particular good deity in the Forgotten Realms being all the unhappy with this Paladin's act of raging justice. Slap on the hand bad at worst for losing his temper.

Yep. Remember paladins aren't Jedi with their Vulcanesque notions of anti-anger and cool logic.

There is nothing wrong with paladin bringing the weight of his righteous wrath upon the head of some evil scum!

 

[Dragonblade]

They also polarized board members into two camps.

Those who felt paladins were glorified social workers or some sort of fantasy cop subject to modern notions of jurisprudence.

And those who felt paladins should be Holy Warriors, ordained by their gods to bring righteous war against the forces of darkness!

It looks like the polarization has already begun!

 

[Agemegos]

It's not even a question of honor. The man had no honor. He was a child molester. He was beneath contempt and was dealt with like a piece a vermin. Why would the Paladin in anyway conduct himself as though this man were deserving of the honor of face to face combat?

Honour is not what we owe to others. It is what we owe to ourselves.

 

[Dragonblade]

Honour is not what we owe to others. It is what we owe to ourselves.

Therefore, the paladin should be the final arbiter on who deserves to be treated honorably, and who does not.

 

[DarkMaster]

Letting society decide its fate : take a look at medieval society : is it not really doing the world a service ? Such a guy would likely walk free in medieval society. besides law was inefficient, and known criminals walked all over Europe unmolested, because they were either nobles (ruled by "divine" right), or known (valuable to the nobles) mercenaries.

The base of a lawful society is organisation, no single being should be allowed to decide what is good or bad for the society in question. The paladin in this case acted as a CG. He knew that it was wrong and did what he taugh was the right thing to do, even if society do not agree with this type of justice.
Clearly from the DM advice this was not socially accepted, the paladin being part of this society should have conform to it. as for your example in this case it is completly irrelevant the man was neither a nobles or known. The end result would probably have been the same. The man would be dead but the decision would come from the society and not from a single individual. And if the man would have been found not guilty, the paladin misinterpreted the situation, would it still be ok to kill him?

If you want to play such a knight I strongly recommand the Paladin of Freedom in UA.

In such a case letting society decide is a bit of hypocrisy. By the time society decides anything, if ever, the guy has so many years to escape and continue to hurt innocents. Clearly not desirable for a paladin. IMO at least

No, why is the Paladin a better judge than a counsil of seven man(for example) expert with matters of law?

And what is desirable for the paladin, he is good but he is also lawful and preaching by example. If he give himself a license than everybody can do it too and quickly it becomes anarchy and that is not desirable for the paladin. Paladin are not Good at all cost like CG characters are.

 

[DarkMaster]

Therefore, the paladin should be the final arbiter on who deserves to be treated honorably, and who does not.

And why the pretended molester cannot do the same, allowing a single individual to take such descision can only lead to one thing Chaos. Any metagaming answers like it's different he his a paladin is like saying that I could kill someone in real life because I am lawful good, metagaming is not good