D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Hussar]

Ah yes, the thing we like happens to be old so we must like it because tradition.

Never mind that some of us vehemently, and loudly (on these forums…frequently), despise traditionalism, and don’t think humans, clerics, or fighters, are a useful part of the game.

Weren’t you complaining at someone the other day because they “ascribed motives to people”?

You don’t see any hypocrisy in the post I’ve quoted here, and that complaint the other day?

Umm, in the context of the thread, the person I was quoting specifically posrep'd a post that was full of points saying that they liked halflings because of tradition.

Which is a perfectly fine reason to like something. No question there. But to then claim that tradition has nothing to do with the popularity of halflings seems a bit odd.

So, I'll ask you the same thing I asked @Neonchameleon - do you think that the reasons that @Cadence listed for why halflings are interesting are wrong?

 

[Hussar]

But there is no more popular race to replace them with. All races that are more popular than halflings are already in the PHB. That's the facts.

Yup, that's true.

But, I wonder how long it will remain true. From the looks of things, those that are playing the new races aren't the ones that play humans or Tieflings or Dragonborn. Those numbers haven't really changed. It's the Tolkien races that are dropping. Now, to be fair, we've got like 2 actual points, so, trends are still very much in the air. But, does anyone think that halflings are MORE popular now with new races being added to the game every year?

And, note, when you claim the whole "Top 9" spot, that's only if you include both subraces together, right. What happens when that drops?

Does anyone here think that that 5 (ish) percent number is going to go up? What's the cut off point? For me, it's 5% (ish). So, yup, I'd cut gnomes, halflings, and half orcs, and promote the less popular but new ideas into the PHB. Because, apparently THAT'S what people actually want to play. For all the complaints about Dragonborn and Tieflings, they're not in the top 9. They're in the TOP 5.

Oh, hey, Nerdist must be listening to us: [Top 10] D&D: Most Popular Races

Pegs halflings at #8, ahead of goliath's and genasi. Imagine what place they'd be if goliath's and genasi were actually IN the PHB.

Note, gnomes didn't even crack the top 10.

 

[Hussar]

There is a car. Some people like it because it's red. Some people like it because it is fast. Some people like it because it has a lot of legroom. Some people like it because it is electric. I like it because it has a lot of leg room and because it's electric, and it's nice that it's fast. I simply don't care about the colour. People are allowed to like the colour.

Yes, but, you REPEATEDLY stated, along with @doctorbadwolf, that tradition has nothing to do with halfling popularity. Yet, when someone talks about how they like halflings because of tradition, you let it pass without comment. After all, what was the purpose of your anecdote about the new player and telling me how halflings are such a fantastic race for new players if not a rejection that tradition plays a role in the popularity of halflings?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Umm, in the context of the thread, the person I was quoting specifically posrep'd a post that was full of points saying that they liked halflings because of tradition.

Which is a perfectly fine reason to like something. No question there. But to then claim that tradition has nothing to do with the popularity of halflings seems a bit odd.

So, I'll ask you the same thing I asked @Neonchameleon - do you think that the reasons that @Cadence listed for why halflings are interesting are wrong?

As I answered in my previous post I posrepped it because it was (I'm pretty sure intentionally) funny and I hit the thumbs up rather than going in to click the laugh button.

Also I find tradition largely irrelevant - but that doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to consider it a serious positive.

Oh, why are halflings such a burden on the PHB to you? Halflings take three pages for about 5% of characters and could easily be cut to two pages. Druids take six plus however much for their unique spells for about 6%

 

[Don Durito]

Pegs halflings at #8, ahead of goliath's and genasi. Imagine what place they'd be if goliath's and genasi were actually IN the PHB.

I'm bemused by this idea, because, while I quite like Goliaths, we've had quite similar threads to this about Goliaths.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, but, you REPEATEDLY stated, along with @doctorbadwolf, that tradition has nothing to do with halfling popularity.

Where have I stated this? As opposed to tradition having nothing to do with specific arguments about popularity?

Yet, when someone talks about how they like halflings because of tradition, you let it pass without comment. After all, what was the purpose of your anecdote about the new player and telling me how halflings are such a fantastic race for new players if not a rejection that tradition plays a role in the popularity of halflings?

It was to point out a thing that halflings are the best race for. And that there was yet another appeal to halflings.

If tradition has a role in the popularity of halflings so what? Why is this actively bad? If tradition was the only reason for the popularity that would be bad - but it isn't. And I don't think it's the dominant reason either.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yup, that's true.

But, I wonder how long it will remain true.

I don't know. But while it is true then we should treat it as a fact. When the data changes then we can reevaluate.

From the looks of things, those that are playing the new races aren't the ones that play humans or Tieflings or Dragonborn. Those numbers haven't really changed. It's the Tolkien races that are dropping. Now, to be fair, we've got like 2 actual points, so, trends are still very much in the air. But, does anyone think that halflings are MORE popular now with new races being added to the game every year?

What does this have to do with anything? And I don't think that halfling popularity is changing much because none of the new races are thematically like the halfling. And somehow half-orcs are massively more popular in 2020 than 2017

The races that are losing popularity are elves, with people who want a magical race having a lot of alternatives (such as genasi), and dwarves with alternative doughty folk in the goliaths and tortles.

And, note, when you claim the whole "Top 9" spot, that's only if you include both subraces together, right. What happens when that drops?

Then lightfoot halflings drop behind both human and both elf subtypes - but come in ahead of both dwarf subtypes (and all the gnomes). And I think that even the stout halflings are ahead of the genasi which basically fall apart when you look at subraces.

Does anyone here think that that 5 (ish) percent number is going to go up? What's the cut off point? For me, it's 5% (ish).

For me it's to do with thematic niche as much as it is percentages - and I could stand to go up to a dozen races. As many races as classes because races take up much less space. If a druid at 6% takes six pages (not counting spells) then a two page race at 2% is meeting the space limitation.

So, yup, I'd cut gnomes, halflings, and half orcs, and promote the less popular but new ideas into the PHB. Because, apparently THAT'S what people actually want to play. For all the complaints about Dragonborn and Tieflings, they're not in the top 9. They're in the TOP 5.

Oh, hey, Nerdist must be listening to us: [Top 10] D&D: Most Popular Races

So you'd cut what your own data shows is a top 5 race (half-orc). We can only speculate as to why given that you appear to be arguing on the grounds of popularity.

Me, I've given my reason as to why; there are a number of reasons half-orcs aren't great at filling their thematic niche and replacing them with orcs would be an improvement. But you are arguing on popularity alone.

Pegs halflings at #8, ahead of goliath's and genasi. Imagine what place they'd be if goliath's and genasi were actually IN the PHB.

Note, gnomes didn't even crack the top 10.

And as I've said regularly if you cut gnomes then halflings become more popular. Because they're the nearest alternative to their niche. (The reverse is also true of course but I think to a lesser extent).

I'd also point out that on D&D Beyond Genasi and Goliaths are free (as are Aaracokra), meaning that if we are using DDB statistics then goliaths and genasi have a similar boost to being in the PHB. Possibly a bigger one as they are something that (a) everyone gets and (b) is cool and new to play around with that wasn't in the PHB. I'm unable to say if this "new shiny, but also in the core source" outweighs the PHB effect on D&D beyond but it certainly significantly offsets it significantly for the purpose of statistics made using D&D Beyond.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Have you stopped to wonder why we say "this is what I did" and not "this is what WotC should do"? Take a guess as to our motivation ... I think it's a pretty universal one.

Because you either don't want to or don't care about changing them in the wider game? Whereas I am specifically talking about changing them in the wider game published by Wizards of the Coast?

And then getting told "but no one is offering any solutions" which then becomes "we've all offered solutions, but he doesn't listen" when I remind people that I've offered solutions to the problems I see?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I did try to show how I use them in my home campaign only to be told that it was not relevant.

Heaven forbid I happen to like halfling lore and simply flesh them out a little bit without changing their core.

You showed me what you did in your home game as an answer to what core halflings are like.

Your game, which is a Norse-inspired world where you have rewritten massive chunks of lore, if not the entire lore for every race and monster.

I wonder why I didn't accept that as an example of what halflings are like in the PHB? Guess I'm just unreasonable, after all, the elf entry clearly does reference their home in Yggdrasil... oh wait. It doesn't. Because the PHB doesn't present a Norse-Inspired world written by Oofta. So in a discussion where at the time we were talking about "what does the PHB say" your campaign notes weren't relevant.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I apologize if I misunderstood the thrust of your argument. The following is the thread I was responding to.







Here, I understood you to be saying that tending an orchard or vinyard or raising horses were not vocations that would involve hard, sweaty work.



A tongue-in-cheek statement that admits that magic can take the place of hard sweaty work to accomplish farming, but it also doesn't really make them your typical farmer.



But then here you seem to be taking magic back out of the equation, so forgive me if I assumed that you were again implying that those types of agriculture are not hard work.

I see by your most recent posts that you're ok with magic-assisted farming. That's fine. I think it's a cool background for an elf. But it doesn't make elves a stand-in for common farmers. Right?

The Tongue-in-Cheek snark has made things a little more difficult.

I figured when when @Gammadoodler was laying out his joke about elves not working or getting dirty, he was picturing wheat or cotton farming. "Getting dirty" by means of tilling the soil and manipulating the dirt.

If I was supposed to take it that elves never do any work... Well, I'm sorry to be blunt, but that is a stupid assertion. There are elven built cities, elven forged weapons, elven wars, elves hunt animals for food. Saying they never work or get dirty is just ridiculous.

The point was then put in that they use magic, so they can't be farmers.

Well, first off, they use magic and "skill" ie knowledge of how to farm. For all we know, they could use magic instead of fertilizer and all the rest is just what they do with their hands. But, additionally, would say a person today isn't a "common farmer" because they have a tractor? Maybe a "common elven farmer" does use magic, and that makes them different from a "common human farmer" of the medieval period. However, I don't see the useage of magic or technology as invalidating the "farmboy leave home" trope. If it did the flying ship and robots on Luke's farm would have made Luke Skywalker not a farmboy.


However, even if, even if we go forward with the idea that elves are too magical to count as "farmboys" I gave a list of literally a dozen extra races. Elves were the only one objected to in any capacity. Which still makes halflings one of a dozen ways to make a farm boy