D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Chaosmancer]

The point is it doesn't matter. I'm not trying to win this argument. I don't need to be convinced.

Saying halfling villagers use slings effectively for defense (however that works), adds variety without needing to add significant power.

Meanwhile your need for halfling villagers to optimize based on the weapons table, removes variety for the sake of mechanics. Mechanics, which aren't very good. And then you complain they're just like humans.

I was talking about them being just like humans before this talk of weapons ever occurred.

And I've said, at least twice now, that if you want all your halflings carrying slings for personal defense, I'm fine with that.

What I took objection to is this idea that the halfling with a sling, in their impregnable home, that is too small to fit in, and unburnable, along with their mobile cover, would absolutely destroy a gnoll raiding party that runs in trying to get into melee with the halflings, becuase slings are amazing and you'll have 40+ halflings attacking at the same time, with the gnolls unable to ever fight back.

At the level of "defend the village" you need better gear than slings. That's all I've been saying, but now halflings are life-long sling enthusiasts who have the sharpshooter feat sling edition, because halflings using weapons is frowned upon unless they are slings, because slings are cheap.

 

[Faolyn]

DRINK!!

Well, if you actually showed that you don't hate halflings instead of just claiming you don't but in all ways acting like you do, then maybe you wouldn't get so drunk.

The same post you are talking about tells me that militia are largely useless and totally inneffective against trained military. But, apparently, being "low level militia" is enough to respond to a an invasion and suffer fewer losses.

Again, quantum halfling strikes. I know, it's those halflings ninjas. Always blame ninjas.

Like I said, pick a lane.

Gnolls are not trained military. Neither are most bands of raiders or bandits.

A halfling militia probably would either be wiped out or forced to flee from an actual trained military.

No quantum halflings here. Just your unwillingness to actually pay attention.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1) How did the halflings notice the gnolls approaching in the dark to the point where they are already hidden in a completely fortified location?

They didn't need to. They went to bed independently of the gnolls. In their homes, under the ground. Which are fortified. Some of then are up reading or arguing with people on the internet.

2) What do you mean "extremely solid doors"? Where is this coming from? Even if it is a really strong wooden door, it is likely a DC 15. Gnolls have a +2 strength and the help action. Breaking down the door isn't that hard.

Reinforced doors. And once broken then what? The gnolls start crawling? Because the ceilings are about 3'6" high.

3) Why would you burn the ground? You shoot flaming arrows through the windows of the house, and set fire to the inside of it.

Let's set the earth on fire. Great plan there.

4) Wait, now the doors are extremely solid, reinforced, and concealed?

If living in hostile country and expecting raiders of course. They're solid and reinforced. You think they wouldn't reinforce their doors if expecting gnolls?

5) Yeah, I covered squeezing. A gnoll can fit into a small space, like that 3 ft ceiling you mentioned.

Do yourself a favour. Try crawling through 3' high tunnels and then fight. Especially when the layout was designed so you can be poked in the side with spears. Gnolls, to move through halfling burrows aren't just squeezing but simultaneously squeezing and crawling (which means that they count as not just squeezing but also prone).

Sure the game mechanics allow it - but I want you to look at the physics. How are they carrying their spears while crawling? This definitely counts as a fortified position - which gnolls explicitly do not attack.

They have disadvantage on attacks and advantage on being hit. "The first gnoll to be killed" assumes that a gnoll in melee killing two halflings a round

If a crawling gnoll is killing two halflings per round then we have extremely stupid halflings.

You seemed to have just assumed that halfling homes are impossible to breach, with their glass windows and wooden doors.

Yay. Because halflings have large glass windows in gnoll country. You have assumed extremely stupid halflings.

And that somehow the squeezing rules make a gnoll helpless. That isn't how that would work.

It's not the rules, it's the physics. And no they aren't helpless - just comparatively easy targets. Crawling and vulnerable to being stabbed in the backside. And because under the mechanics they are both crawling and squeezing they move slooowly.

You need to review the Squeezing rules. Halfling homes aren't an inherent defense. And then humans should also get slings and default to having slings available.

Yes, because humans have a noted affinity for slings across multiple editions. And are explicitly community minded. Oh wait.

It is the best way to defend themselves and it isn't like they wouldn't want to do that.

Please stop with the inventions. Slings are not the best way to defend yourself. Their main benefit is that they are easy to carry from day to day. So if you're a relatively egalitarian community with everyone pitching in it's a good way to ensure everyone can. If you're a more formal race that likes hierarchies you're more likely to go for militias.

 

[pemerton]

I don't get this Halflings vs Gnolls thing.

Halflings are bucolic, laid-back types who are occasionally roused to anger. They rely on non-buclolic, non-laid-back types (paradigmatically Rangers) to patrol the borderlands around them and hold back the Gnolls. If Gnolls end up breaking through the cordon of protectors the Halfling might successfully defend themselves, but not without cost and loss - and given that the Gnolls are probably raiding rather than seeking to take over, the Gnolls will no doubt make of with at least a chunk of what they were hoping to obtain.

Isn't that basic trope in D&D that players play some of those protectors? Who may include Halflings, but are more likely to include humans, Dwarves, Elves and Tieflings?

What's the argument actually about?

(Also, @Whizbang Dustyboots, I'm still in the running!)

 

[Neonchameleon]

I was talking about them being just like humans before this talk of weapons ever occurred.

And yet I've pointed out a way that halflings aren't just like humans. And it's visibly reflected in the slings they are using. Humans normally organise hierarchically with a militia and defaulting to people in charge. Halflings are more community minded which is why they run the approach of all halflings carry slings.

You have just suggested that if it's that effective a strategy all humans should carry slings. Something humans basically haven't done. If you change the way humans work to make them more halfling-like and less like real world humans then no wonder you think halflings are just like humans.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I was talking about them being just like humans before this talk of weapons ever occurred.

And I've said, at least twice now, that if you want all your halflings carrying slings for personal defense, I'm fine with that.

What I took objection to is this idea that the halfling with a sling, in their impregnable home, that is too small to fit in, and unburnable, along with their mobile cover, would absolutely destroy a gnoll raiding party that runs in trying to get into melee with the halflings, becuase slings are amazing and you'll have 40+ halflings attacking at the same time, with the gnolls unable to ever fight back.

At the level of "defend the village" you need better gear than slings. That's all I've been saying, but now halflings are life-long sling enthusiasts who have the sharpshooter feat sling edition, because halflings using weapons is frowned upon unless they are slings, because slings are cheap.

I never said they do or don't have any such ability. I proposed one way to rationalize something which you, specifically you, cannot believe because you insist on applying PC combat rules to all setting aspects.

I needn't have bothered though, because trying to prove something, by inventing an imaginary scenario, with combat between 2 groups of npcs is an incredible silly exercise.

Ultimately the DM decides who wins a battle between 2 groups of NPCs, whether through direct fiat, or as a result of total control of battlefield assumptions and tactics (if the DM is a masochist)

You're arguing an illusion.

 

[pemerton]

And yet I've pointed out a way that halflings aren't just like humans. And it's visibly reflected in the slings they are using. Humans normally organise hierarchically with a militia and defaulting to people in charge. Halflings are more community minded which is why they run the approach of all halflings carry slings.

I don't want to introduce too much more tinder into this fire, but I would have thought that D&D allows for a wider range of typical human beings than the ones that you describe here.

 

[Faolyn]

To try to head off in a different direction:

I was reading this thread: D&D 5E - Strixhaven: Curriculum of Chaos No Subclasses Confirmed by James Crawford about Strixhaven and how the play test of the cross class subclasses resulted in those cross class subclasses getting punted because there was a clear response from fans that it wasn't wanted because fans want subclasses that can be used as broadly as possible.

Now, to head this bit off, I'm NOT SUGGESTING that the bar for PHB races be 70%. That would be ridiculous and, well, that's not what that 70% number means. It means that 70% of those polled have looked at that option and said, "Yeah, I'd like to see that in the game" not, "I am going to use that option right now." Which brings me back to that 5(ish) percent played. I have a gut feeling that those numbers reflect a general dissatisfaction with halflings (as well as gnomes and possibly a few others) in the PHB.

5% of players who used D&D Beyond played a halfling when that survey came out. It's not that only 5% of people thought that halflings were a good idea and everyone else said they weren't or were meh on them. The poll wasn't "what races do you think are cool or that should be included," to which only 5% responded with halflings. It was a survey of who was playing what races and classes on D&D Beyond at that time. (And, it should be noted, D&D Beyond only accounts for a fraction of actual D&D players.)

Your "gut feeling" is doing nothing more than letting you see what you want to see. Especially when you realize that probably a major reason why people didn't want the Strixhaven archetypes is because it was too much of a departure from the way things currently are and, while a potentially cool idea, are not suited for the way 5e is built. Halflings are neither.

But, like I said, to me, the only reason that halflings are as high as they are is because they're in the PHB.

You're going to have to provide some data to back that up, because right now it's still just a baseless claim.

Only thing is, kobolds fill both those archetypes. Small, unnoticed, cute, likable (don't think so? Ask anyone who played Sunless Citadel who Meepo is), great rogues, sneaky, AND, they do have the whole crafting aspect as well, so, they appeal to folks who want to play casters or artificers.

Except they totally don't, because not everyone who likes playing small people want to play a tiny lizard. Because kobolds have a "cowardly scavenger trapper" feel which, while appealing in its own right, is not the same as "bucolic farmer" or "friendly everyman" or even "kindly burglar." Halflings look like someone you can share a drink and some conversation with, and kobolds look like something you'd smack with a broom until they get out of your trash cans (and I say this as someone who loves kobolds).

It has been suggested that gnomes and halflings be folded in together. I like this plan. It resolves my issues. But, I think if you fold a gnome with a halfling, you get a kobold.

Gnome + halfling = tiny dragon-lizard-person? Maybe you need to stop playing drinking games.

 

[Cadence]

Do Halflings in 5e still often have dogs? (Didn't they in at least one edition?)

 

[Faolyn]

So, halflings can't be expected to train with bows or crossbows, because they are weapons of war (even though they aren't) but they can be expected to have trained all their lives with slings.... because we want them to have slings as weapons to fight off invaders.

Where on earth are you getting this idea?

Halflings probably use slings a lot, for reasons that others have already gone through, and mostly because they got a bonus with slings (and other thrown weapons) all the way up until 3x. This does not mean that they won't also use bows or crossbows. Or swords, or axes, or anything else.

Halflings do not have to use slings at all, if the DM wants them all to have bows or crossbows instead. In fact, halflings can have halfling-sized blunderbusses if the DM wants them to.

I do love how halflings can just have whatever made up things you want them to have, just so you can say we are wrong.

Wow, it's like we're playing a game that entirely consists of things that are made up! Forget halfling-sized blunderbusses; halflings can have laser rifles if the DM wants them to.

The word "sling" doesn't even appear in any halfling write up for 5e, either PHB or Mordenkainen's, but now they are training all their lives to use this weapon that no one else would ever utilize, even though it is a massively effective (in your view) way to defend against possible raiders.

No, it doesn't. Because slings are a simple weapon everyone gets--unlike the martial weapons that elves and dwarfs gain proficiency in--and the 5e writers didn't choose to give them any other bonus with slings, like ignoring cover or increased range or damage. It doesn't actually break anything to say that halfling NPCs typically train with shortbows or crossbows or whatever.