D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Don Durito]

Of course! “Requiring skill” doesn’t mean commoners can’t learn to use it.

It’s a commoner’s weapon because it’s cheap and simple to make. Anybody posting here could probably make a functional one without any prior training.

Add to that the fact that ammunition for it can literally be found in almost any square yard on the planet. I mean, shot is nice, but a rock or broken brick will do.

Hey. Bungo. You need to take the sheep out again today.
But Dad it's so boring all they do is sit around and eat grass.
Well practice your slinging then. It will come in handy if any wolves come stalking, plus if you hit a pheasant we can cook it for dinner.
Ok Dad

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes. In the same way it would be ridiculous to resolve a game of poker using the game mechanics when you control what hands those players are dealt and what they choose to do with them.

In that circumstance, as in this you are deciding the outcome. What other people have done is suggest that you could use different cards.

I'm the guy who who suggested the halflings could have part of a feat without radically altering game balance.

But you've given your Gnolls far more. You've:

• Put them in the setting
• Fully equipped them
• Put them somewhere near a halfling settlement with no other readily apparent alternative targets
• Allowed them to find the halfling settlement (when they're supposed to be difficult to find by lore)
• Allowed them to come upon that settlement completely undetected (no outriders, no local tradesmen, no messengers on the road, no hunters or trappers, etc. who could have observed this dangerous threat and sought to warn the people in area)
• Allowed the settlement they encountered to exist on some wide open plain with unobstructed sightlines
• Allowed the settlement they encountered to be constructed as if it is in safe peaceful territory.

You've stacked the deck in such a way that of course you will get the outcome you expect.

Really? That's your argument?

Gnolls exist. Gnolls get their MM standard equipment. Gnolls are attacking a halfling village. The very very beginning of the discussion that Neon and me were having that first premise that they accepted and instigated, that is what you object to?

Okay. Object away. I can have an entirely different discussion with you about an orc team, or a red dragon, or whatever else you want to discuss. I'm sure you can tell me that you want to discuss a dragon who flies over, thinks it worthless to attack the halflings and therefore their slings are an excellent deterrent.

To some of the other points, yes, we did not account for the outriders warning the village of the gnolls. That wasn't part of what we were discussing. So what? It wasn't part of the premise.

The settlements surrounding territory was never discussed. I would assume it is some sort of grassland since Neon kept talking about hills. Of course, the hills hide the approaching gnolls just as much as they do the halflings (Oh, I know, the gnolls are just going to walk right past the village, because farmland and livestock are so easily hidden that they can be completely missed)

The threat level of the area was never discussed. Neon said it was a normal village. Then suddenly shifted to a village fortified against all attacks because it is hip deep in dangerous territory. I objected to that change because "gnolls vs halfling village" was were we started and "gnolls vs hyper fortified and experienced halfling village who deals with this constantly and has dozens of countermeasures for every possible contigency" is a massive shift of goalposts.

But, I find it interesting. By accepting the initial premise I was "stacking the deck in my favor" and only by leveling the playing field by stacking the halflings or completely removing the threat, are we being "fair". That tells me... that I was right. The initial scenario was incredibly dangerous and devastating for a normal halfling village. But, I'm sure instead of accepting that fact, I'll be accused of twisting words and making things up and whatever other terrible things you want to imagine.

 

[Oofta]

If you get the chance, try both while tying to move. Controlling a relatively static machine like a bow is easy compared to something with a bit of gyroscopic force involved.

Youre going to miss A LOT with bows, but odds are good you’ll actually do better faster with the bow.

I'm not sure. Not that I necessarily disagree, of course.

But I could keep the momentum of a sling going while moving but you don't maintain the draw on a bow for long. Well, you can with a modern composite bow, but not a traditional bow with a decent draw weight.

In any case it just goes back to training and practice.

 

[Faolyn]

If the scenario had been "halfling village in an area prone to gnoll raids" then that might be a good counter point.

The scenario wasn't that. It was "typical halfling village" that was being hit by a gnoll raid. Again. If the other side is shifting the goalposts and the scenario, why is that my concern?

A typical halfling village, just like any village created by any race of people, will be built with consideration for the threats in the area. Which in D&Dland, consists of any number of wandering monsters.

I can imagine many things. I'd like to imagine that when a poster puts forth the premise of "halflings, only using slings" I'm not going to get attacked for participating with that premise instead of imaging that the halfligns are protected by dragons.

Absolutely nobody said that halflings only use slings or that only halflings use slings.

You have a very bad habit of claiming people said things that you simply made up.

I mean, I could have responded to the cover by "imagining" that the Gnolls have trained Bullete's who burrow under the halflings and eat them from below. But, this wasn't a scenario about gnoll raiders and a pack of Bulletes. so I didn't do that.

No, it was a scenario about gnolls, which are ravening, bloodthirsty demon-monsters who use very limited tactics due to their low Intelligence, have no home or culture of their own, have no ability to domesticate animals, and have literally no allies aside from the occasional cultist (MM canon).

Versus halflings, who have a need for tactics to protect their home and culture, can domesticate animals, and are fully capable of making allies.

It makes very sense that gnolls can domesticate bullettes and use them in battle, unless Yeenoghu actually gives them such an ability. It makes every sense that halflings would defend themselves in any way possible.

If you are insulted by my willingness to keep to the premise proposed, then I don't know what to tell you, just making up new additions to the premise has never seemed like a very effective way of having a conversation

Except you're not keeping to the premise. You're dismissing anything that goes against your imagined scenario of halflings living on an empty plain with no defenses against a violent enemy.

Actually, Neonchameleon said it was four ft high walls, hidden in the dirt until it was time to raise them for a gnoll attack. They felt that was a reasonable thing for the village to have.

That is pretty reasonable to have. They would likely have these walls in addition to all the other obstacles I mentioned.

And if the gnolls have a readied action, they shoot them when they run from one cover to the next. Which is why I said they were pinned.

If. Of course, gnolls, being literally insane creatures with an Intelligence of 6, are going to think of of using readied actions.

Also, this is again the assumption that they are in Gnoll Country, which was not the original premise.

Right. The original premise is that they live in well-defended lands that have patrols, watchtowers, and the like, making raids by gnolls very unlikely. You somehow can't understand that halflings could or would benefit from such defenses.

Finally, strange how these halflings who aren't martially minded at all are making sure to grow their decorative shrubs to maximize their strategic value in a fight.

They live in D&Dland. It makes sense to maximize their strategic value.

Or, having shrubs 20 feet apart looks nice, and it turns out to have a secondary benefit.

But, I'm sure that's just my lack of imagination making it sound like they are becoming more and more like trained soldiers instead of just simple common folk, in making sure they have figured out the sight lines to take full advantage in a ranged attack versus raiders

It's D&Dland. People can't live in D&Dland like they lived in the real world, where you only had to worry about other humans or maybe wolves and/or plagues. It's your lack of imagination that's preventing you from realizing that D&Dland would actually be quite different in how people set up defenses.

So yes, after being around for a century or three, a village of halflings would likely have some pretty good defenses. Even if gnoll raids aren't a common threat.

You'd think they weren't. But Neonchameleon. Oofta, and others were very adamant that giving them anythign other than slings was an insult to the halfling ideal.

I've read their posts. No, they really, really were not adamant about that at all. They have not been telling you it's wrong for halflings to use other weapons. Stop making stuff up.

I'd quote you NeonChameleon saying exactly that, the post where he was talking about how humans made a hierarchical society, so they would rely on a militia instead of a community of slingers, you can actually see my post where I answered his demand for real-life historical human communities that had everyone using slings, stating that he would "drop his objection" if I could prove that any humans ever did that. However, he blocked me after I provided that proof, because he took offense to me telling Oofta that militia's aren't mercenaries because how dare I twist things to make militia's into mercenaries.

I have a feeling that NeonChameleon actually just got tired of having to go over the same arguments over and over again and having you lying about what others are saying.

So, yet again just like every time before that someone has told me "no one ever said that", yes, they did.

Except they didn't.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For the last time, I have never said they would only use slings.

This wasn't your post?

You also seemed to claim that for some bizarre reason halflings paid no taxes. Now it's "they'd be okay if they had crossbows"? Shortbows aren't worthy weapons? Slings, which are dirt cheap, easy to carry and useful for hunting small game would be useless? It's a strange hill to die on. Most commoners are not going to have crossbows, they're weapons of war. If your commoners are constantly at war, then yes, you have a monster world.

Most halflings in my campaign world survive because they aren't constantly being attacked, if they are attacked it's likely that they retreat to their homes (which as others have pointed out are built for small people and likely underground) or run away like commoners throughout history have done. Halfling commoners are no more or less able to protect themselves than human commoners. They're probably more capable for the variety of reasons I, and others, have posted.

I guess I did misremember that you claimed shortbows would be fine. I apologize for forgetting that. I guess I remembered too much that you thought Crossbows were bad because they were "weapons of war" even though the light crossbow is not.

I associate slings with halflings and think of it as a weapon for people with little money or that want something simple and easy to carry and maintain. You were the one going on and on about how only crossbows would be sufficient which I think is dumb.

Stop making **** up.

No more dumb than a pioneer or other landholder with a rifle.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What's with the whole gnoll thing anyways? Sorry to ask. Too lazy to go through everything. Is it that the halflings race would be wiped out because every single one of them is a farmer? Maybe Gnolls vs Halflings deserves its own thread with a poll.

Someone proposed halflings cpould defend their villages with only slings. Gnolls had come up in another part for some reason, I adopted the gnoll raid on a halfling village to show that slings wouldn't be enough.

Then it spiraled into numerous accusations of why I'm a terrible person and how dare I.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A typical halfling village, just like any village created by any race of people, will be built with consideration for the threats in the area. Which in D&Dland, consists of any number of wandering monsters.

Which is why Neon turned around and demanded if I was going to try and force him to use a normal village in an area that didn't get monster attacks which would leave the human village (that we were never talking about) just as undefended instead of a well-protected and prepared one.

Absolutely nobody said that halflings only use slings or that only halflings use slings.

You have a very bad habit of claiming people said things that you simply made up.

If that is the case, why did everyone object to me saying they would have a few crossbows, and maybe a few shortbows?

If that was perfectly fine, why didn't they ever say "yes that is reasonable" and instead just keep doubling down on reinforced doors and slings being deadly?

No, it was a scenario about gnolls, which are ravening, bloodthirsty demon-monsters who use very limited tactics due to their low Intelligence, have no home or culture of their own, have no ability to domesticate animals, and have literally no allies aside from the occasional cultist (MM canon).

Versus halflings, who have a need for tactics to protect their home and culture, can domesticate animals, and are fully capable of making allies.

It makes very sense that gnolls can domesticate bullettes and use them in battle, unless Yeenoghu actually gives them such an ability. It makes every sense that halflings would defend themselves in any way possible.

Gnoll Packlord has decent intelligence. Every pack or warband has an alpha that is a Packlord. I never brought them into the discussion because I didn't want to seem like I was changing the scenario. For creatures with "very limited tactics" they certainly seem to understand how to use ranged weapons to soften targets and setting fire to settlements to draw out more people. I also imagine "not running into a death box" is something they can understand, since they set up such situations themselves.

But again, your objection seems to be completely that "we should just add more things to halfligns until they can't lose" whether or not that was the initial position or not. Yes, obviously halflings are going to win if we can just give them whatever tool they could possibly need to win. But that seems a bit like special pleading.

Except you're not keeping to the premise. You're dismissing anything that goes against your imagined scenario of halflings living on an empty plain with no defenses against a violent enemy.

The original premise was that they did have defenses. The slings! My point was that the slings weren't enough. Then they got more and more things added to them. I wasn't adding to the scenario, so I wasn't rejecting the original premise.

That is pretty reasonable to have. They would likely have these walls in addition to all the other obstacles I mentioned.

Yeah, I know a lot of non-warlike commoners who live peaceful lives making sure to make death mazes that they hide in the dirt in case they are attacked.

I'm not saying it isn't reasonable, I'm saying that these beings you seem to now be discussing seem a far cry from the "every one overlooks them because they are just simple common folk with no ambitions" peasants that you guys were holding up before.

Also, if we were talking about a standard halfling village, then you are saying this is reasonable for the standard halfling village to have. Which is much broader than "those being constantly raided"

If. Of course, gnolls, being literally insane creatures with an Intelligence of 6, are going to think of of using readied actions.

"Wait to shoot til I can see the thing" isn't exactly the work of Sun Tsu. Heck, snakes and spiders can wait to strike until they can see their target and it is in range, and they have an intelligence of 2 or 3.

Right. The original premise is that they live in well-defended lands that have patrols, watchtowers, and the like, making raids by gnolls very unlikely. You somehow can't understand that halflings could or would benefit from such defenses.

No. That was not the original premise. The fact that you think that shows the problem.

They live in D&Dland. It makes sense to maximize their strategic value.

Or, having shrubs 20 feet apart looks nice, and it turns out to have a secondary benefit.

Funny, when I've made reference to "living in DnDland" I'm making a deathworld that no society could ever survive. When you do it, it is to show how utterly reasonable any particular defense is.

Double standards.

It's D&Dland. People can't live in D&Dland like they lived in the real world, where you only had to worry about other humans or maybe wolves and/or plagues. It's your lack of imagination that's preventing you from realizing that D&Dland would actually be quite different in how people set up defenses.

So yes, after being around for a century or three, a village of halflings would likely have some pretty good defenses. Even if gnoll raids aren't a common threat.

So, @Oofta am I allowed to respond to this as a legitimate point? Or would I start getting accused of twisting words and making a deathworld that no society could ever survive? Because it seems now that going with the premise is being challenged because DnD is so much more dangerous than the real world. But I'm not allowed to follow that thought unless I want to meet renewed accusations.

I've read their posts. No, they really, really were not adamant about that at all. They have not been telling you it's wrong for halflings to use other weapons. Stop making stuff up.

Kept arguing that they should be using slings, and they never accepted them using something else. They even went after my math with the response that the sligners just needed more people to make the difference.

I have a feeling that NeonChameleon actually just got tired of having to go over the same arguments over and over again and having you lying about what others are saying.

Right, it wasn't the literal post they said they were done with that was the last straw. I'm sure that was just coincidence.

 

[Oofta]

Which is why Neon turned around and demanded if I was going to try and force him to use a normal village in an area that didn't get monster attacks which would leave the human village (that we were never talking about) just as undefended instead of a well-protected and prepared one.



If that is the case, why did everyone object to me saying they would have a few crossbows, and maybe a few shortbows?

If that was perfectly fine, why didn't they ever say "yes that is reasonable" and instead just keep doubling down on reinforced doors and slings being deadly?



Gnoll Packlord has decent intelligence. Every pack or warband has an alpha that is a Packlord. I never brought them into the discussion because I didn't want to seem like I was changing the scenario. For creatures with "very limited tactics" they certainly seem to understand how to use ranged weapons to soften targets and setting fire to settlements to draw out more people. I also imagine "not running into a death box" is something they can understand, since they set up such situations themselves.

But again, your objection seems to be completely that "we should just add more things to halfligns until they can't lose" whether or not that was the initial position or not. Yes, obviously halflings are going to win if we can just give them whatever tool they could possibly need to win. But that seems a bit like special pleading.



The original premise was that they did have defenses. The slings! My point was that the slings weren't enough. Then they got more and more things added to them. I wasn't adding to the scenario, so I wasn't rejecting the original premise.



Yeah, I know a lot of non-warlike commoners who live peaceful lives making sure to make death mazes that they hide in the dirt in case they are attacked.

I'm not saying it isn't reasonable, I'm saying that these beings you seem to now be discussing seem a far cry from the "every one overlooks them because they are just simple common folk with no ambitions" peasants that you guys were holding up before.

Also, if we were talking about a standard halfling village, then you are saying this is reasonable for the standard halfling village to have. Which is much broader than "those being constantly raided"



"Wait to shoot til I can see the thing" isn't exactly the work of Sun Tsu. Heck, snakes and spiders can wait to strike until they can see their target and it is in range, and they have an intelligence of 2 or 3.



No. That was not the original premise. The fact that you think that shows the problem.



Funny, when I've made reference to "living in DnDland" I'm making a deathworld that no society could ever survive. When you do it, it is to show how utterly reasonable any particular defense is.

Double standards.



So, @Oofta am I allowed to respond to this as a legitimate point? Or would I start getting accused of twisting words and making a deathworld that no society could ever survive? Because it seems now that going with the premise is being challenged because DnD is so much more dangerous than the real world. But I'm not allowed to follow that thought unless I want to meet renewed accusations.



Kept arguing that they should be using slings, and they never accepted them using something else. They even went after my math with the response that the sligners just needed more people to make the difference.



Right, it wasn't the literal post they said they were done with that was the last straw. I'm sure that was just coincidence.

I'm done.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Really? That's your argument?

Gnolls exist. Gnolls get their MM standard equipment. Gnolls are attacking a halfling village. The very very beginning of the discussion that Neon and me were having that first premise that they accepted and instigated, that is what you object to?

Okay. Object away. I can have an entirely different discussion with you about an orc team, or a red dragon, or whatever else you want to discuss. I'm sure you can tell me that you want to discuss a dragon who flies over, thinks it worthless to attack the halflings and therefore their slings are an excellent deterrent.

To some of the other points, yes, we did not account for the outriders warning the village of the gnolls. That wasn't part of what we were discussing. So what? It wasn't part of the premise.

The settlements surrounding territory was never discussed. I would assume it is some sort of grassland since Neon kept talking about hills. Of course, the hills hide the approaching gnolls just as much as they do the halflings (Oh, I know, the gnolls are just going to walk right past the village, because farmland and livestock are so easily hidden that they can be completely missed)

The threat level of the area was never discussed. Neon said it was a normal village. Then suddenly shifted to a village fortified against all attacks because it is hip deep in dangerous territory. I objected to that change because "gnolls vs halfling village" was were we started and "gnolls vs hyper fortified and experienced halfling village who deals with this constantly and has dozens of countermeasures for every possible contigency" is a massive shift of goalposts.

But, I find it interesting. By accepting the initial premise I was "stacking the deck in my favor" and only by leveling the playing field by stacking the halflings or completely removing the threat, are we being "fair". That tells me... that I was right. The initial scenario was incredibly dangerous and devastating for a normal halfling village. But, I'm sure instead of accepting that fact, I'll be accused of twisting words and making things up and whatever other terrible things you want to.

Yes. Gnolls exist. They come from somewhere, they get their equipment from somewhere.

As far as I am aware, they do not spring from the ground fully formed and equipped. They and their stuff have to be somewhere around this "typical halfling village" to be a threat. It seems you propose that this halfling village should be constructed and governed as though it is blithely unaware of such a threat.

You keep objecting to @Neonchameleon s arguments as if they are being unreasonable in suggesting that a village aware of that potential threat might in some way be prepared for it.

Or alternatively, that the village isn't in normal territory for gnoll attacks, and the gnolls by some incredible luck have managed to avoid every other possible target between wherever they came from, and this particular hidden halfling village and the halflings have no inkling of their presence.

You also continue to dismiss the difficulty of even finding the village, which is specifically called out in the lore. I get that you don't like it and you don't think it's realistic, but it's there. You are willfilly ignoring it. That is 100% on you.

But at the end of the day, the point is, at every possible opportunity to interpret the premise, where there has been a choice between favorable and unfavorable assumptions for the halflings, you have chosen the most unfavorable, and where it has been possible to choose between favorable and unfavorable assumptions for the gnolls, you have chosen the favorable ones. It's almost like you had an opinion on the outcome and formed assumptions based on that outcome.

And it's all so pointless. The best possible outcome here is that we come to an agreement on the results of a scenario based on assumptions so specific that the whole thing is worthless beyond the internet points you may win or lose.

Here we can do this...

In your world, halflings have armed militias and use crossbows, or whatever the hell else will allow you to satisfy yourself regarding how they can safely weather a quantum gnoll attack, because your halflings clearly need all that stuff.

Done. Easy peasey.

 

[Don Durito]

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