D&D 5E My tweak to make (Champion) Fighters decent

[TheCosmicKid]

Extra Attack: same level as half-caster martial classes like Ranger and Paladin, this makes no sense. The guy who doesn't spend half his time learning nature or spells should be attacking more earlier. Give fighters Extra Attack at 4th and 9th instead of 5th and 11th. Not that much of a bump and it makes the fighter FEEL special.

This is largely an illusory benefit, like the wizard getting spell levels one class level before the sorcerer in 3E. There are just two narrow windows where this version of the fighter exceeds the ability of the other warriors: 4th level and 9th-10th levels. At all other times, they're the same. If you want a class to be better than another class at something, it should be better consistently.

Also, as it stands, the fighter is already "attacking more earlier" by way of Action Surge. Which most of the opinions on this thread seem severely to be underrating.

Indomitable: Comes online way way too late. Barbarians get Danger Sense at 2nd, Rogues get Uncanny Dodge at 5th. Fighters should get Indomitable at latest by 5th and it should scale well given it is limited where those other two abilities are unlimited. I'd be looking at extra uses at 8th, 11th.

Danger Sense is a much more niche ability; Uncanny Dodge is a class-defining ability that rogues get in lieu of Extra Attack or 3rd-level magic. Indomitable is a good example of a well-designed high-level class feature, which can be kind of tricky to write: it's strong, desirable, and expands the character's capabilities in an exciting way, while at the same time not feeling so necessary for the archetypal concept that it ought to have come earlier.

Action Surge: You get one at 2nd level (which a ton of people dip for) and then not again until 17th? Terrible scaling again, especially for a limited resource. 2nd, 9th, 16th at least gives it some middling progression.

Action Surge's scaling is hidden in Extra Attack.

It scales really damn well.

There is a reason you don't get a second Action Surge until the same level casters get 9th-level spells.

 

[S'mon]

What level fighters are they currently? Did you say, and I just missed it?

Also, what kind of fighters are they playing?

7 & 11. Champion.

 

[DaviMMS]

This is largely an illusory benefit, like the wizard getting spell levels one class level before the sorcerer in 3E. There are just two narrow windows where this version of the fighter exceeds the ability of the other warriors: 4th level and 9th-10th levels. At all other times, they're the same. If you want a class to be better than another class at something, it should be better consistently.

Also, as it stands, the fighter is already "attacking more earlier" by way of Action Surge. Which most of the opinions on this thread seem severely to be underrating.

Danger Sense is a much more niche ability; Uncanny Dodge is a class-defining ability that rogues get in lieu of Extra Attack or 3rd-level magic. Indomitable is a good example of a well-designed high-level class feature, which can be kind of tricky to write: it's strong, desirable, and expands the character's capabilities in an exciting way, while at the same time not feeling so necessary for the archetypal concept that it ought to have come earlier.

Action Surge's scaling is hidden in Extra Attack.

It scales really damn well.

There is a reason you don't get a second Action Surge until the same level casters get 9th-level spells.

Agree with most what you said but you're the 1st person I ever saw complementing Indomitable.
1 reroll of a saving throw per long rest is a terrible ability and is really far from being strong (Just compare it to paladin aura or monks proficiency in all saves). Rerolling a save with no extra bonuses is terrible unless you are likely to succeed anyway.

In fact, indomitable is the main reason I think fighter tier 2 and 3 are quite boring. Till 6th, you're getting something huge every single level. But 7th and 10th levels are boring unless you're an EK. 8th is good, but an ASI is something you can get at any class, it would be 2 levels latter but it would be there. 9th level is almost a dead level.

11th level is huge, but comes after 4 bellow average levels. 12th, 14th and 16th levels are ASIs again, but after your 3rd ASI (enough for max main stat + 1 or 2 feats (if V. Human)), they become much less important and atractive. 13th level is Indomitable. Again a dead level. 15th are quite average in all subclasses.

So, fighter class levels between 12th and 16th are terrible. ASI are good, but they become overkill after some time, especially on a SAD class.

I don't think by no means that the fighter is weak. It can underperform in games with few to no short rests, but that is a failure in the design of the game not of the class. Balancing some classes completely on short rests and others completely on long rests was quite stupid. Unless you follow some pretty arbitrary guidelines it leads to loss of balance.

I don't think most people who say fighters are weak would continue to say so if they had 12-18 superioty dice and 3-6 action surges per long rest, instead of a third of that per short rest.

That said, I think that till 6th or even 8th level, the fighters are very well designed (if you follow the correct ratio of long and short rests). Indomitable is what drops the ball here. A simple fix would be keep the current effect of Indomitable, but add that you also gain proficiency in a save of your choice. That way, it becomes a worthwile feature worth of taking whole 2 ing levels and half of a 3rd, and is not out of hand with existing features of the game, becoming more or less equivalent to paladin and monk bonus to saves.

Other minor nitpicks I have with the class is the diminuching return of ASIs at higher levels (I would just trade the 14th level ASI for something else), and how badly designed the subclasses were. Champion is terrible, both in design and strengh. Battlemaster and EK are fine from strengh point of view, but the 1st is completely front loaded and the latter takes a while to become good.

Battlemaster and EK do not really need changes, it would be good to have then, but not really necessary. Champion needs urgently to be redesigned.

So, to make a résumé, my changes would be.
Make the changes mentioned above for Indomitable.
Remove 14th ASI and put there the 2nd use of Action Surge and Move the 4th attack to 17th (Just for the sake of simetry, I hate how the at will damage boosts come at diferent levels for diferent classes)
And create a new capstone. My take on it would be advantage on all proficient saves and survivor feature from champion subclass (that would need to be completely redesigned)

 

[ThunderDM]

These are better versions of the champion abilities imo:

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you gain a bonus to initiative equal to half your proficiency bonus (rounded up), and climbing and swimming no longer cost you extra movement. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.

Indomitable
Beginning at 9th level, when you fail a saving throw, you can choose to succeed instead. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again. You can use this feature twice between long rests starting at 13th level and three times between long rests starting at 17th level.

 

[FrogReaver]

They seem a lot weaker than the Barbarians in my sandbox no-feats Wilderlands game, where players often set the pace. As I said in the OP, I'm not seeing 6-8 fights/day (and not interested in mangling my campaigns to force this). They have neither the durability of barbarians nor the nova power of Paladins, this change gets them closer to the latter.

Maybe in a Feats game they are more balanced though I doubt it, having played 3 levels of a Fighter with feats alongside a barbarian in Out of the Abyss. The lack of reckless attack option really hurts Fighter, as does
their squishiness. Barb just seems vastly better IME across several campaigns.

I believe a battlemaster fighter actually out Nova's a Paladin if you count just the first round and no prebuffs or feats.

 

[FrogReaver]

If I was going to change fighters for a no feat game I would:

For the champion I would change the stat cap (maybe to 24 or maybe even remove it all together).
For the BattleMaster they could forgo the ASI and instead take an extra battlemaster dice.
For the EK I would allow them to learn an extra spell and get an extra level 1 spell slot in place of the ASI.

 

[LapBandit]

This is largely an illusory benefit, like the wizard getting spell levels one class level before the sorcerer in 3E. There are just two narrow windows where this version of the fighter exceeds the ability of the other warriors: 4th level and 9th-10th levels. At all other times, they're the same. If you want a class to be better than another class at something, it should be better consistently.

I don't follow, that's 3 levels where they have Extra Attack early that they wouldn't otherwise, nothing illusory about it.

Also, as it stands, the fighter is already "attacking more earlier" by way of Action Surge. Which most of the opinions on this thread seem severely to be underrating.

In big moments it feels big, I've played and DMed for countless fighters in 5E, Action Surge isn't that big a deal. Winds up as powerful as being able to smite with two 1st level spells usually.

Danger Sense is a much more niche ability; Uncanny Dodge is a class-defining ability that rogues get in lieu of Extra Attack or 3rd-level magic. Indomitable is a good example of a well-designed high-level class feature, which can be kind of tricky to write: it's strong, desirable, and expands the character's capabilities in an exciting way, while at the same time not feeling so necessary for the archetypal concept that it ought to have come earlier.

Fighters in 1st and 2nd edition had great saves, this obvious is an attempt to harken back to then. Fighters abilities are far too spread out.

Action Surge's scaling is hidden in Extra Attack.

It scales really damn well.

There is a reason you don't get a second Action Surge until the same level casters get 9th-level spells.

It's not better than smiting on hit with a 1st level slot on two attacks, three 1st level spell slots at 11th. Yawn, color me not impressed. Where was that scaling again?

How does any of this make the fighter best at fighting?

 

[LapBandit]

I believe a battlemaster fighter actually out Nova's a Paladin if you count just the first round and no prebuffs or feats.

I'd like to see that math and the circumstances that are required for it to be true.

 

[ccs]

Fighters get a lot of extra ASIs. In a no-feat game there's a diminishing return on them.

How do you figure that? Isn't your DM having you make saves & ability checks? Do you not enjoy having a better chance to pass them? Do you not like having more HP?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't follow, that's 3 levels where they have Extra Attack early that they wouldn't otherwise, nothing illusory about it.

You say you want the fighter to be better than the paladin at making extra attacks. Well, your version isn't. Not consistently. At 4th level it is, then at 5th through 8th they're the same again. The advantage effectively turns on, then turns off again. The design tells me you don't care that much about the fighter being better than the paladin on this front, because most of the time, it isn't.

If I were designing a class to be the best at extra attacks the way you're suggesting (and setting aside the question of balance for the moment), I'd give it its first EA at 2nd or 3rd, then its second at 5th and so on up. That way, it's always one attack ahead of the paladin, except at 1st.

Alternatively, returning the question of balance to the table, I'd give this hypothetical class an ability that lets them make extra attacks on a more limited basis. Perhaps once per short rest...

In big moments it feels big, I've played and DMed for countless fighters in 5E, Action Surge isn't that big a deal. Winds up as powerful as being able to smite with two 1st level spells usually.

So you're saying the classes are balanced against each other? Sounds good to me.

Fighters in 1st and 2nd edition had great saves, this obvious is an attempt to harken back to then. Fighters abilities are far too spread out.

Fighters, like everybody else, should continue getting new things at high levels. Moving everything they get to lower levels just makes the higher levels more boring.

It's not better than smiting on hit with a 1st level slot on two attacks, three 1st level spell slots at 11th. Yawn, color me not impressed. Where was that scaling again?

You are aware that when you Action Surge, you get to make a full Attack action again complete with all your extra attacks, right? At 11th level, making six attacks is usually better than making two attacks with a 3d8 bonus to damage on each: assuming a mundane longsword and 18 Str, that's 6d8+24 [51] vs. 8d8+8 [44] potential damage. Larger weapons and enchantments only improve the fighter's advantage, as of course do battlemaster dice. And Action Surge is on a short rest refresh rather than a long rest refresh like those spell slots.

Is it dramatically better? No. But it shouldn't be. Paladins are pretty good too, and they deserve to be. If fighters had a second Action Surge at this level, they would be leaving paladins in the dust. As things stand in the PHB, both classes successfully fulfill their respective fantasies without overshadowing each other. Thumbs up to WotC.