D&D 5E My tweak to make (Champion) Fighters decent

[Blue]

How do you figure that? Isn't your DM having you make saves & ability checks? Do you not enjoy having a better chance to pass them? Do you not like having more HP?

Different scores have different amounts of utility. For one character Charisma might raise your saves but Str or Int does little for you.

Once you reach the cap of 20, you're not improving the ability score that gives you the most return. You've probably got a second best that gives you some returns, maybe CON or DEX or a secondary from your class. But it's still diminished usefulness compared to the primary. Then when that caps at 20, you're finding you are getting less and less out of each advance.

Yes, you are still getting SOME returns, but they are DIMINISHED vs. the best you got. That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

 

[Gladius Legis]

At 11th level, making six attacks is usually better than making two attacks with a 3d8 bonus to damage on each: assuming a mundane longsword and 18 Str, that's 6d8+24 [51] vs. 8d8+8 [44] potential damage.

Nitpick on your Paladin number here in light of Jeremy Crawford's tweet. He confirmed that IDS adds 1d8 both to your regular attack, and then 1d8 again when you Divine Smite. So the Paladin's mark here would be 10d8 + 8 [53]. A S&B Paladin would slightly outdo an S&B Fighter, though move the comparison to great weapon builds of both classes and the Fighter would indeed pull ahead.

And then this later comparison would be instead:
11th-level fighter: 6d8 + 5d10 + 24 [78.5]
11th-level paladin: 17d8 + 8 [84.5]

Again, though, switch both classes to great weapons and the Fighter pulls back ahead.

 

[Gladius Legis]

And this is completely ignoring the Champion, which in no way keeps up.

Can we just admit that the Champion is what it is? A simple Fighter meant for beginners and those Fighter players who don't care about making level-to-level character or tactical decisions?

The Battlemaster, being more complex, is meant more for the advanced player and should reward its players for taking advantage of that complexity. And it does.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nitpick on your Paladin number here in light of Jeremy Crawford's tweet. He confirmed that IDS adds 1d8 both to your regular attack, and then 1d8 again when you Divine Smite. So the Paladin's mark here would be 10d8 + 8 [53]. A S&B Paladin would slightly outdo an S&B Fighter, though move the comparison to great weapon builds of both classes and the Fighter would indeed pull ahead.

And then this later comparison would be instead:
11th-level fighter: 6d8 + 5d10 + 24 [78.5]
11th-level paladin: 17d8 + 8 [84.5]

Again, though, switch both classes to great weapons and the Fighter pulls back ahead.

Huh? The improved divine smite feature does not add 2d8 when coupled with divine smite It adds 1d8 even when divine smite is at it's normal max of 5d8.

 

[FrogReaver]

Can we just admit that the Champion is what it is? A simple Fighter meant for beginners and those Fighter players who don't care about making level-to-level character or tactical decisions?

The Battlemaster, being more complex, is meant more for the advanced player and should reward its players for taking advantage of that complexity. And it does.

No. It wasn't made for beginners. Although it's a good beginner class because of those reasons. It was made to be the old school fighter. It's just the EK and battlemaster are so much better that you pretty much never see anyone but a NOOB play it.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Huh? The improved divine smite feature does not add 2d8 when coupled with divine smite It adds 1d8 even when divine smite is at it's normal max of 5d8.

Read Crawford's tweet again. I even linked it.

EDIT: Crawford is the lead designer and also the writer of Sage Advice, so his interpretation is the closest to "official" we'll get.

 

[FrogReaver]

Read Crawford's tweet again. I even linked it.

EDIT: Crawford is the lead designer and also the writer of Sage Advice, so his interpretation is the closest to "official" we'll get.

Maybe so. But he is wrong here

 

[Gladius Legis]

Maybe so. But he is wrong here

Whether you think he's "wrong" or not is irrelevant. That's the official interpretation. You're free to disagree and rule differently when you DM, but then it's a house rule.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Maybe just change the fighter abilities from short rest to encounter.

 

[Gladius Legis]

No. It wasn't made for beginners. Although it's a good beginner class because of those reasons. It was made to be the old school fighter. It's just the EK and battlemaster are so much better that you pretty much never see anyone but a NOOB play it.

Whatever you feel the reason is for the Champion, it's a simple subclass and shouldn't have the ceiling of its more advanced subclasses. At least give those with the acumen to build and play Battlemasters and EKs properly some mechanical reward for their doing so, is my point.

It's like balancing a fighting game. Ideally, you want the "top tier" characters to be more difficult to play, or at least more difficult to unlock their "top tier" potential. Otherwise, why put in the effort on such a character?