Mystic Theurge - how's it playing?

[ruleslawyer]

That said, this highlights one reason why I prefer the MT to an invasive rules alteration. I am not sold on the notion that all spellcasting is synergistic (and more generally, that all classes should mix well.)

A mechanism like the MT I can gladly dispense with (or in my case, alter to the point I think it's sensible) and not use if I don't happen to agree with it. Prestige classes are optional. Core rules are a bit harder to reconcile if I don't agree with the underlying design principle.

Darn straight. I second this.

 

[Spatula]

Wiz5/Lor10/Acm1 vs. Clr3/Wiz3/MT10

How is a 5th level wizard qualifying for Loremaster?

 

[ruleslawyer]

My bad. Editing error (I originally used a Wiz5/Inc10/Acm1 before deciding that was a bit, well, unfair). Call it a Wiz10/Lor5/Acm1 if you'd like.

 

[dulsin]

For my game, I'll just make it a 5 level class. Doesn't matter a whole lot since I doubt we'll get too high level anyway.

Personaly I feel that would kill the class. For the first 6 levels you become increasingly weaker compaired to any other character class in your party. by the time you hit level 5 Mystic you are just hitting your stride. If you had to goback to mage or cleric again the character would become even weaker.

The only reason to take this class is the dream that one day you will become an epic MT. Most will never make it but that is the goal.

 

[Pelenor]

Some of you have expositied that you think that an underlying problem is with multi-class characters with more than one spell casting class (cleric/wizard for example). I don't suppose I could get you to explain a bit more clearly what you think the problem is (as I haven't performed any in depth balance analysis as such limited time being what it is and all). I've always been of the opinon that a cleric/wizard (to stick to my example above) should not be as powerful a wizard nor as powerful a cleric as a single classed caster and I imagine that most would agree. But in theory they should be as powerful or maybe slightly less powerful a character in total (mostly for game balance reasons as discussing game flavor varies so much in differing campaigns that it's pointless to discuss I think). The question is how to you accomplish this? Or have I missed the point some of you are trying to make completely?

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Some of you have expositied that you think that an underlying problem is with multi-class characters with more than one spell casting class (cleric/wizard for example). I don't suppose I could get you to explain a bit more clearly what you think the problem is (as I haven't performed any in depth balance analysis as such limited time being what it is and all). I've always been of the opinon that a cleric/wizard (to stick to my example above) should not be as powerful a wizard nor as powerful a cleric as a single classed caster and I imagine that most would agree. But in theory they should be as powerful or maybe slightly less powerful a character in total (mostly for game balance reasons as discussing game flavor varies so much in differing campaigns that it's pointless to discuss I think). The question is how to you accomplish this? Or have I missed the point some of you are trying to make completely?

The point is that a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 is horribly underpowered compared to any other multiclass character. For instance, a Fighter 10/Rogue 10 is still a competent fighter, and probably on par with a Fighter 20 in terms of effectiveness. This is because the staples of a fighter, namely hit points and BAB, still increase with rogue levels. The cleric/wizard may be able to cast a bunch of spells per day, but they'll all suck because his caster level is only half what it should be to face challenges of the appropriate CR. It would be like asking the fighter/rogue to fight using either the BAB from his fighter levels or the BAB from his rogue levels, but not both.

 

[dulsin]

Looking at the class from a Play Balance viewpoint.

Level
1-2 You are equal to any of the other characters

3-6 The split between classes becomes painful. You are casting level 1 and the rare level 2 spell when others are getting level 3

7 Finaly made it! Your casting level for both sets of spells gets a sharp boost

8 You have achived level 3 spells for two classes Fireballs and Cure serious Other classes already have level 4 spells

9 - 16 Your power increases steadily in both classes but you are always 1 full spell level behind other characters.

17 - 20 No more MT levels leaves you with a dillema of what to take. Specialise in one class or split between the two. If you split by level 20 you are 5 character levels behind "pure" casters.

21+ Epic levels brings you back home to finaly earn level 9 spells in both classes by level 23

If you only play characters between level 7-16 they might seem over powered. But if you started at level 1 the character has earned a boost.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Speaking of really high-level Mystic Theurges, has anyone seen the epic MT? It gets alternating levels, meaning you will always be behind if you take the PrC into epic levels.

 

[Intrope]

Speaking of really high-level Mystic Theurges, has anyone seen the epic MT? It gets alternating levels, meaning you will always be behind if you take the PrC into epic levels.

That's actually reasonable IMO. An Epic single-class caster gains much less per-level than a non-epic single class caster; the same should be true of Epic MTs, lest they become the best epic caster.

 

[Christian]

I will respond to the one sensical comment.

If you're finding a sensible comment in one of Hong's posts, you're not looking hard enough for the nonsense.