Mystic Theurge - how's it playing?

[MeepoTheMighty]

That's actually reasonable IMO. An Epic single-class caster gains much less per-level than a non-epic single class caster; the same should be true of Epic MTs, lest they become the best epic caster.

Once you reach epic levels, wouldn't it be wiser to just alternate wizard and cleric levels?

 

[Believer]

Or take Sorcerer levels... because then you can metamagic your low level spells, and use the sorcerer ones as a buffer.

 

[ruleslawyer]

That's actually reasonable IMO. An Epic single-class caster gains much less per-level than a non-epic single class caster; the same should be true of Epic MTs, lest they become the best epic caster.

Not true. Epic casters get SR penetration and, more importantly, feats; MTs get neither SR penetration (a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10/Acm4/MT 10 has a caster level of 18 in each class, meaning that he will find it impossible to overcome spell resistance, ever) nor feats (1/6 epic feat progression? What were they thinking?)

Several pages of back-and-forth on the WotC boards got us to either full caster progression (+1/+1 arcane/divine every level) and 1/6 epic feat progression, or +1 every other level and 1/3 epic feat progression. That keeps the MT just barely balanced with a straight caster; the latter option gives versatility, the former some combination of power and versatility.

 

[jgsugden]

If you'd like a house rule prestige class that gets a similar effect, but does it differently, you might consider the following from my homebrew 3.0 game:

Prerequisite: 3rd level divine spells, magic (or spell) domain, spellcraft 8

Good saves: Will
BAB: 1/2
HD: d4s
Granted abilities:
Level 1: Bonus Metamagic feat as a wizard
Level 2: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability (in cleric), Familiar as wizard of 1/2 your HD
Level 3: Arcane Spellcasting (0th level spells)
Level 4: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Arcane Spellcasting (1st level spells)
Level 5: Bonus Metamagic feat as a wizard
Level 6: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Arcane Spellcasting (2nd level spells)
Level 7: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Arcane Spellcasting (3rd level spells)
Level 8: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability
Level 9: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Arcane Spellcasting (4th level spells)
Level 10: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Improved Arcane Spellcasting (5th level spells)

Epic Progression:
Level 11: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Improved Arcane Spellcasting (6th level spells)
Level 12: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability
Level 13: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Improved Arcane Spellcasting (7th level spells)
Level 14: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Bonus Feat
Level 15: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Improved Arcane Spellcasting (8th level spells)
Level 16: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability
Level 17: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Improved Arcane Spellcasting (9th level spells)
Level 18: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Bonus Feat
Level 19: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability
Level 20: +1 Level Spellcasting Ability, Ultimate Arcane Spellcasting

Arcane Spellcasting: You may prepare arcane spells in your divine spellcasting slots. When preparing these spells, treat them as if they were two levels higher than they are listed on the sorcerer/wizard spell list (ie; magic missile is a third level spell and fireball is a fifth level spell). You may prepare any sorcerer/wizard spell that you have seen cast that is of a level allowed by this ability.

Improved Arcane Spellcasting: You may prepare arcane spells in your divine spellcasting slots. When preparing these spells, treat them as if they were one level higher than they are listed on the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You may prepare any sorcerer/wizard spell that you have seen cast that is of a level allowed by this ability.

Ultimate Arcane Spellcasting: You may prepare arcane spells in your divine spellcasting slots as if they were divine spells. When preparing these spells, treat them as if they were the same level higher than they are listed on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

 

[hong]

I will respond to the one sensical comment.

Are you trying to get into my sig?

'Dumb Design Standard' = 'A class is only a class if it invokes all types of cliched archtypes and worlds of adventure simply through staring at its progression chart!!!

The creeping HEROization of D&D is not yet complete, creature features, in case you hadn't noticed. Go back to GURPS if all you want is gearhead heaven, you p00pyhead!

God knows I expect to be entertained by save progressions and (Su) listings; what else do I have, my group?'

Well, there's always hardcore pornography.

Oh, and I can see some thinking behind the ketchup comment; not good thinking, but still... If the designers had added all types of 'flavorful' and 'fun' special abilities to the prcs, the classes wouldn't be balanced;

You haven't designed many classes, have you? I can tell.

you would have to compromise either on the BAB or spellcasting side.. and *SURPRISE* most DND players like to visualize themselves ingame actually swinging a sword or tossing one of the many spells

I don't know about YOUR clones, but none of MY clones has ever found their ability to visualise swinging a sword or tossing a spell impaired by having mechanical features built into the rules.

In fact, I am SWINGING MY SWORD and TOSSING MY SPELL RIGHT NOW, IKYWIMAITYD.

which add more 'flavor' (and mechanical options) to this game than any hackneyed prc (su) ever could.

The grognards at Dragonsfoot do this better than you.

The MT does the spell thing very well and makes a reasonable compromise between power and versatility.

Did anyone ever mention power or versatility?

 

[Nightfall]

For me I'd toss MT in heartbeat in favor of Hallowed Mage. Much better class AND better flavor over all IMHO.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Some of you have expositied that you think that an underlying problem is with multi-class characters with more than one spell casting class (cleric/wizard for example). But in theory they should be as powerful or maybe slightly less powerful a character in total (mostly for game balance reasons as discussing game flavor varies so much in differing campaigns that it's pointless to discuss I think). The question is how to you accomplish this? Or have I missed the point some of you are trying to make completely?

If you combine levels in almost anything that isn't a wizard, you end up with a single unified character that can (mostly) combine his abilities to be stronger than their constituent parts. In fact in most cases his abilities end up being the equivalent of the sum of their parts.

If you combine X wizard levels and Y levels in basically any other base class you end up with a character who's abilities are equal to an Xth level character, plus the abilities of a Yth level character, plus the additional restriction that only one of the two characters may use their abilities in a given round. And for those who don't know - the CR of two characters of level X is X+2, not 2X.

Cleric (and bard and druid) levels fall halfway between wizard and other classes in terms of their ability to combine with other things - because they have things to contribute that aren't spellcasting (decent hitpoints, worthwhile BAB). A cleric 5/fighter 5 is not too bad. Also helping this out is the fact that only having one action between the two classes isn't too painful due to the large number of pre and post combat spells the build has.

Which is why a wizard 1/fighter 10 and a fighter 1/wizard 10 aren't that bad multiclasses, but a wizard 5/fighter 5 is awful. The first example is effectively a CR 10 (the wizard level contributes almost nothing). The second is also CR 10 (again, the fighter level contributes almost nothing). The third is CR 7 (2 creatures of CR 5 = CR 5 + 2 = 7). Since a wizard's best spells are cast during a combat, he's effectively only using one of his classes abilities at a time. If he's fighting, he doesn't cast, and if he's casting, he doesn't fight.

For me I'd toss MT in heartbeat in favor of Hallowed Mage. Much better class AND better flavor over all IMHO.

Unfortunately if you're merely trying to do something mechanical (ie - produce a viable cleric/wizard multiclass), flavour is a bad thing, just like it is in a lot of the class descriptions. I make the flavour for my character, then pick the mechanics to fit, not the other way around.

 

[jasamcarl]

Are you trying to get into my sig?



The creeping HEROization of D&D is not yet complete, creature features, in case you hadn't noticed. Go back to GURPS if all you want is gearhead heaven, you p00pyhead!



Well, there's always hardcore pornography.



You haven't designed many classes, have you? I can tell.



I don't know about YOUR clones, but none of MY clones has ever found their ability to visualise swinging a sword or tossing a spell impaired by having mechanical features built into the rules.

In fact, I am SWINGING MY SWORD and TOSSING MY SPELL RIGHT NOW, IKYWIMAITYD.



The grognards at Dragonsfoot do this better than you.



Did anyone ever mention power or versatility?

Can't loose an argument gracefully, can you? Ok, I'll bite..how can you add relevant abilities to this class without sacrificing spell progression while maintaining balance? Really..i wanna know!!! I'm sure some crappy prc which provides 1/2 spellcasting prog or rogue BAB can swing a sword or cast a spell; lest you miss my point, they just can't do it well.

As to power and versatility? You asked what reason this class had to exist. I explained a few times that it was spellcasting versatility. The power is the price. It takes the highlights of a single class caster, the spells, and shifts it from power of spells to variety..if you like variety you will like this class.

But what did i just do...you are not interested in 'logic'......i'll play along then...POOPY!

 

[rounser]

I make the flavour for my character, then pick the mechanics to fit, not the other way around.

I suggest you go try playing a flavourless system like FUDGE instead, and find out just how much of the flavour-related heavy lifting D&D does for you, and which you appear to have completely taken for granted with that comment.

 

[hong]

Can't loose an argument gracefully, can you?

Indeed not. My arguments are as tight as a baby's bottom.

Hmm.

Ok, I'll bite..how can you add relevant abilities to this class without sacrificing spell progression while maintaining balance?

Do you really believe the be-all and end-all of a multiclassed spellcaster is getting to the holy grail of 9th level spells?

Really..i wanna know!!!

Do you often wonder about ill-posed questions? That's very Zen, you know.

I'm sure some crappy prc which provides 1/2 spellcasting prog or rogue BAB can swing a sword or cast a spell; lest you miss my point, they just can't do it well.

WELL, ISN'T THAT JUST A SHAME.

As to power and versatility? You asked what reason this class had to exist. I explained a few times that it was spellcasting versatility.

It's boring.

The power is the price.

And how it's boring.

It takes the highlights of a single class caster, the spells, and shifts it from power of spells to variety..

In a singularly boring way.

if you like variety you will like this class.

For "boring" values of variety, that is.

But what did i just do...you are not interested in 'logic'......i'll play along then...POOPY!

The... excessive use... of ellipses... tends to make you look... just a bit... slow-witted. So please... don't. Or do. I don't mind either way.