Narrative Space Options for non-spellcasters

[n00bdragon]

A big problem with saving throws in the d20 system is that people who can't force you to roll against them (read: spellcasters) can generally pick and choose one of the three saves you are weakest at. Frail caster? Toss a fort save. Stupid ogre? Toss a will save. It doesn't help that creatures tend to have abilities scores that increase the saves they are already good at, and even that barely keeps them ahead of the DC curve. Poor saves languish as they increase with HD much slower and often powered by stats that never rise above human normal. A caster has just one stat that increases the save DCs of all his spells. This is one reason saving throws as written are a problem (though I must stress it is not even the elephant in the room as far as d20 magic problems go, this is small time stuff).

 

[Ahnehnois]

A caster has just one stat that increases the save DCs of all his spells.

That is a problem with most of the classes as written. I've taken a cue from some of the late 3.5 classes and given all spellcasters MAD considerations (that is, they need one ability score to learn and cast the spells and another for DCs). This is an obvious oversight within the d20 system; there is no reason to have spellcasters be SAD other than heritage.

Poor saves languish as they increase with HD much slower and often powered by stats that never rise above human normal.

I'm also a believer in medium saves. There are way too many poor saves and not enough granularity.

Frail caster? Toss a fort save. Stupid ogre? Toss a will save.

True enough. That's the only reason they ever work. Trying to beat a rogue's ref is usually a fool's errand. It is worth noting with regards to the latter example, though, that because monster HD are weaker than levels, players tend to face giants and the like who have way more HD than them, to the point where even their bad saves are pretty good.

 

[pemerton]

It's 1 am here now, too late for a serious reply, but I can say this... Fighters DO have that power -it is called "fist to the face" and trumps almost any other scene-framing power (such as Diplomacy or Charm), turning what could have been a social encounter into a combat encounter. Of course, using this in the king's hall might have side effects.

To be fair, I have seen this in play - we called it "the twang of diplomacy"

Both fair comments. What I had in mind was something extra - generally when this happens the GM marks it up as a "fail"/"disadvantage" ingame (eg everyone sees the fighter as a violent thug), whereas I was thinking of an ability which would, in the fiction, make the fighter not seem like the aggressor, but rather defending him-/herself against unwarranted assault in a social context.

 

[Manbearcat]

No, Starfox, no!

I like your "narrative space" formulation much better than a "3 pillars" formulation - even though, as I posted upthread, I want to break narrative space into a "plot determined by action resolution mechanics" component and a "scene framing determined by scene framing guidelines/mechanics" component.

The problem with focusing it on the "three pillars" is that you don't have the tools to properly analyse the following two conrasting options: the ranger has mechanics for tracking, navigating, etc - ie engaging an exploration challenge - whereas the wizard has mechanics for scrying in on the missing whatsits and then teleporting to where they are - ie bypassing an exploration challenge and reframing it as a "pick up the whatsits" scene.

Or in the social sphere: there is a big difference between a Burning Wheel Duel of Wits, or a 4e skill challenge run per the DMG guidlines, which require the players to engage the situation by declaring action, making rolls and having the GM adjudicate the unflding situation; compared to a Charm Spell or the most literal reading of a 3E Diplomacy roll, which doesn't engage the challenge but simply reframes it as one containing a friend rather than a potentially hostile independent personality.

Suppose that the player of a fighter had a "scene reframing" power of some sort such that, in any non-combat situation, s/he could change it into a combat one (eg it might be a taunt power, that turns non-hostile NPCs hostile; or a "challenge the spirits" power, so that in an exploration situation the nature spirits can be forced to duel with the PC, and if the PC wins they will lead the party where the PCs want to go). In this case, it wouldn't matter that the fighter's action resolution abilities were confined to combat, because the player would never have to engage any other sort of situation.

This is a great post (can't xp unfortunately) and really nails down the key distinctions between "engaging with" a scene (via mundane task resolution) and "dictating to/outright reframing" a scene (via resources that allow outright narrative imposition). The latter is what we're ruminating upon in this conversation.

"I roll a Streetwise check to try to find some rumors about the relationship between the Dutchess and the Master of Coin" is quite different from "a breathless courtier catches up to me, reaches into his satchel between huffs, hands me a rolled parchment bearing one of the red herring wax seals of my contact - 'Misty Springs Spa, Suite 103, tonight' ."

 

[pemerton]

In my current three-PC 10th level party, for example, the lowest save value is a monstrous character (who has lost several HD to level adjustment) rogue with a will save bonus of +10. A 10th level caster's best spell DC is 15 + ability modifier + feats. With some effort, he might be able to break through.

Admittedly 3E is not my game, but I'm looking at this and thinking 15 + 6 or more for stat (surely the typical 10th level caster has at least a 22 in their casting stat) +2 for Greater Spell Focus for a DC of 23 - ie the rogue needs 13 plus, or in other words has a 60% chance of failing.

And for PCs against monsters the odds would be better, wouldn't they? Eg a CR 9 Frost Giant has +3 Ref, +6 Will and even if I swap out some feats for Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will these are still lower than your rogue's worst save. I could give the Giant a Cloak of Resistance, I guess, but that might start to have weird treasure and world-building implications.

 

[Manbearcat]

@pemerton Add Owl's Wisdom buff (or a Periapt of Wisdom if you want to reward the Monk with proper victory spoils) for another + 2 to spell DCs.

Not to mention there are plenty of SoS for 3.x Druids, spells that target Fort (eg Poison) or, worse yet, a gigantic AoE field of death in Spike Stones that lasts forever and gives no saves versus its primary effect; Impede progress through an area and deal damage. Any creature moving on foot into or through the spell’s area moves at half speed. In addition, each creature moving through the area takes 1d8 points of piercing damage for each 5 feet of movement through the spiked area. Devastating control for 3 melee characters.

 

[billd91]

My understanding of 3E maths is that making saving throws is quite hard.

Eg at 1st level a fighter's Will save might be +1 at best, I would have thought (WIS of 12 or 13) whereas the DC against a Charm Person spell would be 10+1 (for level) +3 or 4 (for a 16 or 18 INT) = 14 or 15. So around a 1/3 chance to save. And the DC will scale more quickly than the save bonus.

Note that for a low level fighter, that save is actually better than the save in 1e. Plus, resistance bonuses really are substantially cheaper than ways to pump the DC. However, the caster has a lot of incentive to pump that DC modifying stat while targets generally have multiple things they want to buy and don't want to just max out saves and definitely don't want to pump the stats further to drive the saves up more.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Admittedly 3E is not my game, but I'm looking at this and thinking 15 + 6 or more for stat (surely the typical 10th level caster has at least a 22 in their casting stat) +2 for Greater Spell Focus for a DC of 23 - ie the rogue needs 13 plus, or in other words has a 60% chance of failing.

In other words, if the attacking caster is able to pick the best situation out of the entire group, he has a 40% chance of spending his turn doing nothing. That's not great. And if he's attacking, say, a monk, his odds are a lot worse. I also find that SF feats are something that people took when the core rules came out, but gravitated away from as more feats came out (a decision you might question), and it's very hard to get to the point where you have them for multiple schools so you can target your save of choice.

And for PCs against monsters the odds would be better, wouldn't they? Eg a CR 9 Frost Giant has +3 Ref, +6 Will and even if I swap out some feats for Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will these are still lower than your rogue's worst save. I could give the Giant a Cloak of Resistance, I guess, but that might start to have weird treasure and world-building implications.

Don't get me started on CRs. That said, monsters are likely to have lower magical save bonuses, but also tend to have immunities. Even giants are immune to will save effects that target humanoids (of which there are many), and they're not going to fail a lot of fort saves. Targeting their ref makes sense, but they tend to have a lot of hp, and ref saves tend to be for straight damage.

 

[pemerton]

In other words, if the attacking caster is able to pick the best situation out of the entire group, he has a 40% chance of spending his turn doing nothing. That's not great.

My gut analysis is a bit different. Eg use Confusion (perhaps Heightened to 5th level to increase the DC) and have a 60% chance of hitting the rogue who then has an 80% chance of being taken out, plus some (lesser) chance of hitting the other PCs - even if those chances are only 20% (ie save on a 5+) that would be only a 5% chance or so of doing nothing, assuming 3 targets in addition to the rogue. Which to me looks pretty strong.

 

[sheadunne]

Suppose that the player of a fighter had a "scene reframing" power of some sort such that, in any non-combat situation, s/he could change it into a combat one (eg it might be a taunt power, that turns non-hostile NPCs hostile; or a "challenge the spirits" power, so that in an exploration situation the nature spirits can be forced to duel with the PC, and if the PC wins they will lead the party where the PCs want to go). In this case, it wouldn't matter that the fighter's action resolution abilities were confined to combat, because the player would never have to engage any other sort of situation.

I like this. Rather than think about it in terms of moving the classes into other space where they've been traditionally weak, move the space to the them, where they aren't. Interesting.

My first thought was the episode Shindig from Firefly, where it scene changes from a social contract negotiation to a duel. If Mal wins, he gets the contract, if he loses, well, he's dead anyway so it doesn't matter.